706: How to Talk to People Who Intimidate You, with Shandy Welch

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Most leaders find themselves, at least occasionally, in conversations with people who intimidate them. In this Saturday cast, Shandy Welch, one of our fellows, and I share what’s worked for us and how it might help you have better conversations. This is Coaching for Leaders episode 706.Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:29]:
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. This is one of our Saturday Casts. A few times a year, I air an episode here on a Saturday that’s a chat with one of our members. We still have a regular episode coming on Monday, so this is a extra episode. And the Saturday Casts are sponsored and brought to you by the Coaching for Leaders Academy.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:04]:
You can discover more about the academy and receive an invitation for when we next open applications by just going over to coachingforleaders.com/academy. Today, a conversation with one of our longtime members that, boy, is something I’ve experienced a whole bunch in my career. I bet you have too, which is thinking about and trying to get better at talking to people who intimidate you. It is a reality that all of us deal with in our lives and in our careers and certainly in leadership. In fact, most prominently in our leadership roles. How do we get better at it today? A conversation on some of the tactical things we can do, but also perhaps more importantly, the mindset that helps us get there. I’m so pleased to welcome Sandy Welch to the show. She is an executive leadership coach.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:56]:
Her coaching focuses around humanizing leadership and reengaging individuals and teams to inspire change and innovation. She is also one of our coaching for leaders fellows. Shandy, what a pleasure to have you on the show.

Shandy Welch [00:02:11]:
Thank you. I’m really excited to be here. This is an honor.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:15]:
Can I just say before we started recording, you said to me, “it’s interesting how we’re coming full circle on this because you intimidate me less than you used to.”

Shandy Welch [00:02:27]:
Yes. You do.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:29]:
Which I think we should probably just start there. Right? Because

Shandy Welch [00:02:33]:
Yes.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:34]:
You and I have been on this journey a bit as well, and maybe we start with just, like, how you and I first met because it started with you reaching out.

Shandy Welch [00:02:46]:
Yes. I have to say it’s that that was so fun. And it was about 4 years ago. And I sent you a LinkedIn message. Now I have to tell everybody, you were sort of- I had listened to you for a long, long time. I had I was doing a lot of coaching. I was sending your podcast to people episodes that I thought were really relevant to discussions we were having. And I just sort of got this wild hair and thought, I’m gonna send you a LinkedIn note.

Shandy Welch [00:03:14]:
But just so everybody knows, which I think a lot of people also out there feel, you are sort of my Oprah in leadership world. So for me to send that, I thought, you know, one, felt like a bold move to me. I did not know you. We did not know each other at all. And I just sent you a LinkedIn message and just said, hey. I and purely, I just wanted to thank you for the wonderful work you’re doing, the amazing people you’re interviewing, the wisdom that you’ve shared, and the gift you’ve given to so many of us. And I remember feeling almost a little nervous just sending it.

Shandy Welch [00:03:53]:
I don’t know why because I’m usually not like that. I don’t usually get intimidated very easily. But I felt intimidated, excited. And within probably 30 minutes or something, you wrote me back, which I wish I had a video of that because I think I just about fell off my chair. And you and I had this exchange back and forth, which I still have, and it was hysterical. I didn’t think it was you because I figured you must have people that are, you know, responding to you. And I even go, is this really you? And you said, yes. Greetings from Orange County.

Shandy Welch [00:04:31]:
And now I definitely was on the floor at this point. Well, long story short, we got on a call and that was 4 years ago. And since then, now I would call us friends and we do work together.

Dave Stachowiak [00:04:45]:
Yeah.

Shandy Welch [00:04:45]:
It’s such a testament to this very conversation we’re gonna have today of this 5 seconds of bravery, as I try to tell my girls. Is when you want something, you have 5 seconds of bravery. You believe in your worth, and you do it. And you never know what’s gonna happen. And this is a wonderful example of what can happen. So I’m grateful. I’m grateful I had the strength, and I’m grateful you had the gift of a return email to me, which has made a big difference.

Shandy Welch [00:05:14]:
So thank you.

Dave Stachowiak [00:05:15]:
Oh, well, I’m so glad. And I I know there are probably people listening. It’s like, I sent a LinkedIn message at one point, and I didn’t get a response. And so it’s like, there’s always such a challenge, like, for all of us, I think, in just how much we navigate relationships and reaching out to people. And I’m so glad we did connect because Yeah. The part of what you and I actually had talked about is getting better at this thing.

Dave Stachowiak [00:05:43]:
And you are good at this. Like, you and I have talked about before how Yeah. Talking to people who might be a little bit intimidating is something that even though you might feel a little bit of that fear, that intimidation, both you’re good at and you help other people do well too. And so I think that this is a great place for us to explore a bit, like, not only you and I having obviously gone through that exchange, but also just what we all can do better on this because we can get better. It’s a skill like anything else. Right?

Shandy Welch [00:06:14]:
Mhmm. Yep. And I also think we assume that we are the only one getting something out of the relationship, And I think that’s shortsighted. I think we forget how much we have to give to somebody else, whoever it is. And you and I were talking about sort of this humanity side of relationships. And that at the end of the day, we’re all just people trying to connect with each other, trying to explore new ways of thinking. And there’s gonna be opportunities around us all the time, and that is what is gonna drive change.

Shandy Welch [00:06:52]:
And so we need to be able to have the strength and courage to make those connections and also recognize that they’re just other people that also get intimidated by people themselves like you. And I would love for you to speak a little bit about that of, you know, you intimidated me initially, and there are people that intimidate you.

Dave Stachowiak [00:07:16]:
Oh, yeah.

Shandy Welch [00:07:17]:
Right?

Dave Stachowiak [00:07:17]:
Yeah.

Shandy Welch [00:07:18]:
So I would love to hear you talk about how you navigate that because you interface with a huge amount of people that are very well known and would be sort of out of the league of a lots of people, but that’s your daily life. So how do you navigate that?

Dave Stachowiak [00:07:35]:
Better than I used to. And this is probably one of the key things I think for just mindset that’s really helpful. And this might be framed by the fact that I did an Apple fitness workout this morning and was trying to up my weights that I was using on the exercise. But I do think about when you’re trying to lift a weight, for example, because you’re trying to tone your muscles better. And for me, recently, it’s been going from the little handheld 10 pound weight to the 12 pound weight and using that in my exercise a few times a week. And knowing that while that is harder and those repetitions are harder, that that discomfort is good for me. It’s good for my body. It’s good for me, big picture outside of that particular moment.

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:41]:
And I have found a lot of helpfulness over the years of just reframing nervousness and that feeling as my friend. And I say that because I think that we often think about nervousness as a bad thing. Like, oh, gosh. I’m nervous, and I’m talking to this person that I’ve never talked to before. Maybe I have talked to before, but I’m really intimidated by the situation because of their role, because of their title, because of their experience, because maybe I’ve known of them for a lot of years. Like, in my case, like, interviewing people, at times I’ve known someone for years, and they have no idea who I am in a lot of cases. So I’m, like, reframing that that actually means you care Yeah. When you get nervous.

Dave Stachowiak [00:09:30]:
And that has really helped me to realize that it’s not about trying to eliminate nervousness. It’s how you channel it. And there’s 2 things that I have found that have helped me on that, Shandy. One of them is some of this research that we’ve seen over the years, and I can’t remember where it was from originally. But I’ve just reframing the word nervousness and reframing it to excitement and thinking about in your mind, like, okay. I’m about to do this thing that’s scaring me a bit. Maybe it’s having a conversation with someone. Maybe it’s sending that LinkedIn message like you did.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:06]:
Maybe it is a draft of an email. It’s giving a speech at a conference, whatever it is, is thinking about that that tension, the like, those nerves, those things you feel in your body of thinking about it more like excitement. That has helped me a bunch. The other thing that helped years ago is one of my first managers at Dale Carnegie said, the goal is not to eliminate the butterflies you feel. The goal is to get the butterflies flying in formation. And I love that image because we’ve all felt those feelings of the butterflies in your stomach and just feeling like they’re flying all over the place. And not trying to get rid of those, but instead just trying to focus them a little bit better. And from a mindset standpoint, that has helped me a ton, those two things over the years.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:53]:
And you do this well too a lot of the time. When you think about your own mindset, Shandy, what helps you to get in that place of feeling of it feeling a little more doable to talk to someone who seems intimidating?

Shandy Welch [00:11:06]:
Yes. It reminds me of my time with the National Speakers Academy. And a lot of the discussion was how do you stand up in front of people, tell your story, whatever it is, and not be completely overwhelmed by fear? And I’ve never forgotten this one lesson they talked about is if you go out there and your mindset is what are people thinking of me? You know, it’s very much focused on yourself. What are they thinking of me? Do they not think I’m qualified enough? Or I’m not qualified enough. I’m not successful enough to be here. That will bring you this sense of scarcity and the sense of anxiety rather than going out there and saying, this isn’t about me. I’m not worried about what people are thinking about me. What I’m more worried about or thinking about focused on is how can I serve them? What is the gift of knowledge that I have that I can impart to them? They’re here for a reason to listen to me.

Shandy Welch [00:12:09]:
I have something that they want, and it’s my gift to them to give it to them. And all of a sudden and, again, it’s just like you’re reframing the excitement. It’s reframing why I’m here. I’m not here to get something. I’m here to give something. And that calms something within us and to believe that we all have something of great value to share with the next person. And if we can come from a place like that, one, we will feel less anxious, and the other person will feel that. I think about the interview you did, I think it was 270 with Tom Henschel.

Dave Stachowiak [00:12:55]:
Oh, yeah.

Shandy Welch [00:12:56]:
Yes. And he was talking about growing your professional network.

Dave Stachowiak [00:12:59]:
Yeah.

Shandy Welch [00:13:00]:
And it’s a great episode because this is sort of what he was talking about, is you don’t grow it just to add people to your basket. But you want to intentionally pick people that not only can maybe aid you in your journey, but that you have something to give to them and that we’re seeing it as a long term relationship as opposed to just very quickly, what can you do for me? Right? And your intention is just to connect. Maybe and that’s it. You know, when I sent that LinkedIn message to you, the furthest thing in my mind was to actually talk to you. It never even occurred to me. It was just to thank you, purely. And I think, hopefully, you got that. You felt that.

Shandy Welch [00:13:48]:
And maybe that’s why you responded. I have no idea why you responded, but you did. But I think your odds of forming a great relationship or a connection is when it is genuinely in service to the other person.

Dave Stachowiak [00:14:03]:
Yeah. And that came across, and I recall, like, our exchange, like, as you described it. But I’m sure the reason I did respond was because it was so thoughtful and generous. You know? It was just a a genuine thank you, and I try to respond to those when I get those messages. I’m sure I miss many of them, but I think that’s true for a lot of folks. And I think we all sort of have had that experience too when, like, we get a request from someone and it’s sort of like it’s very quickly apparent either in the interaction or the message or whatever that there’s an agenda to it. And and and it’s mostly for them. And and I think that that’s the kind of thing, like, if we can start from a place of just, coming to an interaction with a larger, nobler purpose behind it.

Dave Stachowiak [00:14:46]:
And I’m sure I’ll say more about that in a minute, but I I wanna loop back to something you said just a moment ago, Shandy, because I was I think it’s really key of thinking about being on stage and people listening in whatever venue that is if you’re there, and by there, I mean, you’re the person on stage giving a presentation or you’re the person that’s sitting down and meeting with the CEO or you’re talking to your organization’s top donor. You’re there because you’re the best person to be there. Full stop. And the first time, like, someone told me that, I thought, well, that’s weird. They don’t know that I’m only at this meeting because someone else called in sick today. You know?

Shandy Welch [00:15:33]:
Right.

Dave Stachowiak [00:15:33]:
Yep. Or that I was the 3rd person on the list or that it’s just by chance that I ended up being the one that went to this big meeting today because someone else wasn’t available for whatever reason. And I think a lot of times we get into these situations. I know this has happened for me where someone seems intimidating to us. And one of the things I’ve sort of learned is, no. Like, you’re the best person to be there. They weren’t there. They weren’t available.

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:03]:
Yeah. Maybe you were the 4th or 5th person down the list, but at the end of the day, you’re the person who’s here now. Game on. Great. Go. And the other party, most of the time, doesn’t know or doesn’t care.

Shandy Welch [00:16:16]:
Right.

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:16]:
And and I don’t mean they don’t care as far as they don’t care about the relationship, but they don’t know the backstory. They don’t know that you weren’t supposed to be here, but I have found so much help over the years of just being in the mindset of, like, okay. Maybe yesterday, I wasn’t the best person to be here, and maybe tomorrow, I won’t be either. But in this moment, right now, this hour, this meeting, I’m the best person to be here in this conversation. And so Yeah. Let’s go.

Shandy Welch [00:16:43]:
Yeah. Can you speak a little bit about how you do that or what advice you’d give to people when they are about to embark upon either a conversation or a situation in which they feel intimidated?

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:56]:
Oh, yeah. One thing that has helped me a whole bunch over the years is is trying to always frame the bigger picture, what Dale Carnegie called the nobler motive. What is it that the big picture I’m trying to do to help out both parties? And I think it gets it’s really, really easy to think that an interaction is just about you personally. And often, it’s really not. It’s about you’re you’re there to do something larger. And so let me just use myself as an example. I could get myself in a really nervous place with just about any interview I did on the podcast by thinking about having someone come on the show and thinking about like, oh, gosh. What are they gonna think of me? How are they gonna like my questions? Are they impressed with the preparation I’ve done? Are they like, I could go down a really big rabbit hole and get myself in a bad place really quickly by sort of following that train of thought.

Dave Stachowiak [00:18:06]:
And what has helped me over the years to stay out of that is to think about the bigger picture, the nobler motive. What’s the job that I’m trying to do? And for me, I often think about someone in our listening audience, and I try to approach every conversation, all the prep work I do for interviews, all of the messages we send out on email, the weekly guides of always thinking how can I be as helpful as possible first for the person listening? And that is really great. Not only because it helps to have a better conversation, but it also helps me to stay away from the oh, what is so and so think about me? Or did they like this question I asked? Because it’s not about me. It really isn’t. It’s easy for me to fall in the trap of thinking it’s about me if I let myself. But for me, it’s about what does this mean to the person listening? I’m here to do a bigger job. And for me, having that bigger, broader perspective of always thinking like, what’s the bigger reason I’m here? And that’s the invitation I’d make to anyone walking into a situation where you’re feeling intimidation from a top donor. Right? What’s the big what’s the reason we’re having this conversation in the first place? What’s the bigger thing we’re trying to get out of this? Or walking into a meeting with a top customer or walking in with the CEO.

Dave Stachowiak [00:19:30]:
There’s a reason you’re meeting with them. I mean, I can’t think of a time that I’ve ever had a conversation with someone that was intimidating to me or vice versa. And there hasn’t been like some broader bigger outcome that was either intended or possible from that conversation for both of us and I mean you and I are a great example right you reached out to me and like what wonderful ways you’ve blessed me in our community of being such an active member of now taking on a leadership role as a coaching for leaders fellow, supporting so many of our other members of being there as someone that I often refer people to when they’re looking for a coach as a resource, because you and I are aligned on so many things and how we think about leadership. And none of that would have been possible if either of us have gotten too caught up in the, like, okay. Like, letting the the personal feelings about myself and discomfort and all that kind of get in our way and thinking more about the big picture in the long term.

Shandy Welch [00:20:29]:
Yeah. It is. It’s the openness to possibility, which is so fun. Right? You connect with people that are like minded and that have great ideas and are stronger in areas that you might than you might be and together, you can create something that you never even thought about. Right? And that’s the fun. And if we can see and we go back to this idea of the humanity, we are all just people. Right? We may have different titles. We may have different experiences and careers.

Shandy Welch [00:21:04]:
But, ultimately, at the end of the day, people wanna connect with other people that care about things similar to they them. And that’s what makes for interesting conversation. And if we can recognize that we have a really valuable part to play in that dialogue And to believe that you have something that is worth sharing and that is worth hearing and to have those moments where you say, I am more interested in moving this idea forward than my fear around the next step. And that that’s what’s gonna drive the conversation and the relationship. And and again, you know, we’re a great example. 4 years later, we’re working together on stuff that I that didn’t even exist. Yeah. Back it was it was not even a thing.

Shandy Welch [00:21:55]:
So you never know and to stay so open to what you don’t even know, just to the exploration with another person with no expectation around anything particular.

Dave Stachowiak [00:22:07]:
And you said such an important word there a moment ago which is humanity of it’s so easy for us to get in our minds, all of us. Like, when we’re talking to someone that’s intimidating us for whatever reason of, like, not thinking about them as a person and the humanity that they struggle with. And I I’ve been reminded so often, like, just the importance of just stopping and recognizing, okay, there’s another human being in this conversation. And there’s stuff they’re dealing with too. I remember a few years ago, I had someone who came on the show, New York Times bestselling author. If I said her name, everyone would know it. And we got on the line. I had never met her before.

Dave Stachowiak [00:22:45]:
We had never had any interaction. And she got on the line with me. And after we said hi, she said, you know, I I’m not sure I hit the mark with this book. I’m sort of struggling with it, and I am I’m having some doubts. What did you think about it when you read it? And I thought to myself, wow. Like, I had 2 immediate thoughts. 1, I was so surprised. And then secondly, I was so impressed with her that she was so human in that moment of saying out loud what so many people are often thinking about, but don’t say out loud.

Dave Stachowiak [00:23:18]:
And it was a reminder to me of how we’re all struggling with stuff. Right? It doesn’t matter how much success you’ve had. It doesn’t matter what title you’ve had. In my case, like how many times someone’s written a best selling book when I’m interviewing with someone. Right? Everyone is struggling with stuff. And it’s just the reminder that, like, everyone has doubts. And if we can approach conversations when we do feel that intimidation of just reminding ourselves of that, I think that helps a lot of just being able to recognize and find the humanity in everyone.

Shandy Welch [00:23:50]:
Mhmm. You know, that’s such a good story. You had mentioned one time the wisdom from a jazz artist, Charlie Parker.

Dave Stachowiak [00:23:59]:
Yeah.

Shandy Welch [00:23:59]:
Do you remember that? I would love for you to share that because I think that’s so beautifully said.

Dave Stachowiak [00:24:05]:
Well, this is maybe part of a larger point, which is this helps both in mindset and tactics and also just reducing nervousness. And part of that is just doing your homework. So when you’re gonna have a conversation with someone that intimidates you for whatever reason, And often it’s because someone has more experience. They’ve got a title. They’ve got a position. They’ve got some influence to your organization, your industry, whatever. Right? Generally speaking, they’ve got they’re oftentimes someone who has some visibility in the world. And one thing that I think is just a good place to assume is that someone who’s got a lot of visibility expects that you’ve done your homework.

Dave Stachowiak [00:24:45]:
So you don’t wanna spend time, like, asking people questions or interacting with them on things you could find on their LinkedIn profile or in their writing or other interviews they’ve done or, you know, if if they’ve put out information in the world, they want you to find it. And so I really think it’s important to do homework. And if especially if you’re having a first conversation with someone, in my case, when I’m talking to authors, experts, members who come on the podcast, I usually am spending 4 to 5 hours of prep time of reading books, of thinking through conversations, of going and watching other interviews. Like, I wanna make sure I’ve covered my bases there. One is so I end up having a better conversation when we have that conversation in whatever context it is. But also it really helps me to feel more calm. Because if I know a bunch about a person, if I know their background, if I know that, you know, a little bit of their life story, then I feel like I know something about them. And by the way, I know sometimes people feel a little weird about, like, oh, I’m gonna spend a whole bunch of time researching someone.

Dave Stachowiak [00:25:52]:
And, like, isn’t that kind of weird? And I I don’t think it’s weird at all as long as they’ve put something out into the world. Like, if it’s on their LinkedIn profile, if they’ve written stuff, if they publish articles, they want you to find it. And I think that sometimes they expect that you will have done your homework there. So I really focus on that. And then and and here’s the Charlie Parker part, the jazz artist. A quote from him. “You’ve gotta learn your instrument, then you practice, practice, practice. And then when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail.”

Dave Stachowiak [00:26:26]:
And that’s where the art of this comes in. So for me, when I’m prepping conversations and interviews, you know, I’m spending 4 to 5 hours. I’m getting in the details. I’m pulling quotes. I’m, like, doing as much prep as I possibly can so that when I show up for the conversation, I can adapt in the moment that I can improvise a little bit. Right? That if a topic comes up that takes us in a different direction or someone says something that reminds me of something in their background that maybe I didn’t think to ask them about, that I can be more prepared to improvise in the moment and to respond and to listen better. And that has helped me so much in conversations. And so I spent a lot of time doing homework, but I also try to, like, just set that aside sometimes and say, alright.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:16]:
Now that I’m here, what’s the conversation we really need to have? Mhmm. So you’ve been listening to the podcast for a long time. So you know I always ask people what they’ve changed their minds on. Right?

Shandy Welch [00:27:27]:
I do. I’m gonna ask it to you, though, first.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:29]:
Oh, okay. Alright. Sure.

Shandy Welch [00:27:32]:
I’m gonna flip it around on you, Dave. So as you think about all of these discussions and all of the people that you’ve talked to and how far you’ve come over these years in terms of not only your career, but your own personal confidence with addressing these issues and talking to people that you have only read about before, and then all of a sudden you’re face to face with them. What have you changed your mind on?

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:59]:
I should probably go back and correct something I said earlier first, which- I think I said that oftentimes people are coming to the podcast, and they don’t know who I am necessarily. And that’s not so true anymore. I mean, it’s still sometimes true, but I had a interview. It was probably 3 or 4 years ago of someone who came on the show. Amazing work, loved her book, we got a lot of great feedback on the interview. It was awesome. And we got on the line before the interview, and we were on Zoom together. And I have, for years, just had the practice of assuming that nobody knows who I am and nobody has ever listened to the show or has any perspective of it.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:52]:
And so I’ve always tried to, like, frame, like, okay. Here’s when I talk to a guest. Okay. Here’s our audience. Here’s how many times the show’s been downloaded, all that. And so I was going through my normal, like, stuff. And I was telling her, I’m like, okay. Here’s a little bit about our audience.

Dave Stachowiak [00:29:05]:
The show’s been downloaded 40,000,000 times, blah blah blah. And for I a split second, I was watching her face, and I could see sheer terror in her eyes. And she was so professional about it. It was only there for a second. She immediately composed herself, and you would never know it if you listen to the interview. Like, she did a phenomenal job. And but it was but that split second was, for me, the first time I had ever had the experience, like, interviewing someone where I was like, oh, I just scared her really badly. And that was totally not my intention.

Dave Stachowiak [00:29:51]:
I’m coming to it from the other perspective thinking, she, like, has no idea who I am. I’m just trying to make her comfortable. And I ended up intimidating her a ton just because of the show and the size and all of that. And so one of the things so I’ve changed my mind on, like, oh, wow. I’m on the other side of this now with some of our guests who come on the podcast. And that is a new thing I’ve had to navigate in recent years. And so I try to now be conscious of that and also assume that that sometimes may be the case when I’m talking to someone that maybe they’re intimidating me, but maybe the opposite is also happening at the same time. And so I take more care now to if I sense someone might be a little bit nervous or intimidated for whatever reason, I try to take more care to connect with them personally.

Dave Stachowiak [00:30:43]:
I try to take more care to, like, talk about things that have been struggles for me when I’ve come on podcast. And sometimes I’ll say that to folks up front. And I found that that has helped me to do a little bit better job with that. But, you know, Shandy, I’m still navigating that because I I seem like to myself not a scary person. Right. But it’s again getting out of ourselves of like, oh, yeah. This isn’t just for a lot of us in this community. It’s not just about being intimidated by intimidated by other people.

Dave Stachowiak [00:31:13]:
We’re actually the ones who are doing that too.

Shandy Welch [00:31:16]:
Yes. That’s so important to remember. And that comes up so much with my coaching with people is I’ll say just just the fact that you walked in the room. You haven’t even said anything. You are setting the tone, and the dynamic has completely shifted. And they have never thought of that. It’s fascinating. But I think you’re right.

Shandy Welch [00:31:38]:
I mean, that’s the humility in you, which is such a beautiful quality of you don’t see yourself the way I think a lot of other people see you and everyone that listens. We make assumptions about people that are not necessarily rooted in any truth whatsoever. Yeah. And that’s our responsibility to make sure that we’re not putting something upon the other person that’s not fair or true. And it’s also the responsibility of all of us because we intimidate somebody. Every one of us do.

Shandy Welch [00:32:10]:
Whether we intend to or not. That’s it just is. And so what is our role in that? And how can we be more attentive and gentle so that we can actually have the conversations that need to be had?

Dave Stachowiak [00:32:23]:
Thank you for your kind words, and same question back to you. What have you changed your mind on on this?

Shandy Welch [00:32:28]:
What have I changed my mind on? I think I’ve just recognized the importance of this skill, the importance of the 5 seconds of bravery. Because not only does it allow you to recognize your own self worth, which I think a lot of people struggle with? And I’ll tell you, every time you do it, it will get easier. But also the difference you can bring to other people’s lives and how it will get you closer to what you deem as success or what is you what is your dream. And it’s going to- if everybody did it, you know, it’d be a very different world we live in. And I think many times it’s what separates good from great is the people that say, I am willing to take that step, and I’m willing to be brave. And even though it feels uncomfortable, I’m gonna reframe it, as you said, Dave, in my mind, put more formation into those butterflies, and I’m gonna do it anyway. And I think that is a really big key to success. Whatever we deem as success, that will make a difference if you can start trying to change the narrative in your mind.

Shandy Welch [00:33:46]:
Because most of the time, you will get a yes. Most of the time, people want to help each other. And to experience that is really exciting, and I want that for everybody. And it’s it’s in your control. So I hope people will be inspired to try something a little bit outside their comfort zone, and, hopefully, it’ll give you the results you’re looking for.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:11]:
And I’m so glad you reached out. Thank you so much for all your leadership in our community, serving as one of our fellows and for the coaching you do to support leaders. I’m so grateful to, call you a friend and also to have us both getting to support each other’s work. What a pleasure.

Shandy Welch [00:34:27]:
Yes. Well, thank you for this time, and that was a great LinkedIn message I sent 4 years ago. I’m very happy I did that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:34]:
Me too. Me too. As part of her fellowship, Shandy is listening to our members and listeners to what’s useful from some of our conversations, and we’d love to know what was useful to you from this conversation. If you heard something that you plan to implement or maybe as you implement it and have success, we’d love to hear what worked. Send a note to Shandy at shandywelch@gmail.com. We would love to hear what worked for you and what was helpful from this conversation. Of course, the link will be in the episode notes and this week’s weekly leadership guide. Thanks again, Shandy, for all your leadership with us and several related episodes I’d recommend if this conversation was helpful to you.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:22]:
One of them is episode 343, how to talk to people who have power. Jordan Harbinger was my guest on that episode, a extraordinary podcaster, has a very popular show. Jordan and I talked in that episode about how does he approach situations when he is gonna be interviewing someone who’s got a really big name, a famous celebrity. He’s interviewed many of them over the years. We talked about what kind of preparation does he do in order to have a productive conversation and to make sure he’s well prepared and shows up in the way he wants to. And we also talked about the other side of that too. When sometimes he’s interviewing people and they’re a bit intimidated by him, how does he handle that situation? Episode 343 for a little bit of both of those sides. Also helpful, episode 597, how to help people speak truth to power.

Dave Stachowiak [00:36:11]:
Megan Reitz was my guest on that episode. We talked about her research on looking at it from the other side. If you’re the person who has some influence, a position, a title, sometimes it’s a little harder for people to speak truth to you. We talk in that conversation. What can you do to change the dynamic a bit, not only by your actions and behaviors, but also the culture of your organization so that you do hear what you need to hear and you make it easier for people to speak up? Episode 597 for that. And then finally, I’d recommend episode 672. Set the tone for speaking up. Mike Massimino was my guest on that episode.

Dave Stachowiak [00:36:48]:
Former NASA astronaut, Mike shared several of the stories of his early career with NASA. Couple of times, he didn’t speak up and how he learned very quickly that he needed to in order to succeed as an astronaut and, of course, to align with NASA’s culture of feedback and learning from each other and speaking up. Episode 672, a great guide and inspiration on how to do that well. All of those episodes, of course, you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. And if you haven’t yet, I’m inviting you to set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com. One reason you might want to is to go back and listen to all of our past Saturday casts, fairly regularly, a few times a year. I’m airing a Saturday cast with you to share perspective from some of our fellows, our members and listeners. I think the perspective from those of us who are out there utilizing the things we’re learning on the podcast every single week and putting into practice is so important to hear.

Dave Stachowiak [00:37:47]:
And that’s why I’m always inviting our members and listeners and fellows to come back and speak with us and share their insights. Inside of the episode library, you can find a place for Saturday cast. You can hear many of those past conversations over the years. And perhaps you’d like to engage a bit further and really take action on moving forward. Shandy and I are working together to support one of our academy cohorts right now because we often get to a point in our careers where it’s important to shift our behavior. We can do it alone, but it’s a lot easier with the support of others. The Coaching for Leaders Academy provides the community and structure to accelerate your movement on the behaviors that are most critical right now. If you’d like to find out more about the academy and also receive an invitation for when we next open applications to the academy, just go over to coachingforleaders.com/academy.

Dave Stachowiak [00:38:42]:
All the details are there. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided today as always by Sierra Priest. This coming Monday, I’m glad to have Steven M.R. Covey on the show. We are gonna be talking about the beliefs of inspirational leaders. Join me for that conversation with Steven. Have a great weekend, and see you back on Monday.