677: How Leaders Can Better Support High-Achieving Women, with Sohee Jun

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Too few women are still represented in senior leadership roles, so many of us wanna do whatever we can to support high achieving women. In this episode, what research and experience indicates that leaders can do to better support women in their careers. This is Coaching for Leaders episode 677.Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:32]:
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. Speaking of leaders being made, you know, so many of us have a heart to develop not only ourselves, but much more importantly, the leaders of tomorrow of empowering the leaders inside of our organizations and our future leaders. And so many of us have a heart to support the women in our lives, both personally and professionally. And today, a conversation about how we can do better in our roles as leaders of supporting high achieving women.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:19]:
I’m so glad today to welcome Sohee Jun. She is a leadership coach for female executives, leaders, founders, and entrepreneurs. She’s also a TEDx speaker, Forbes coaches council member, keynote speaker, leadership development expert, and author. With over 20 years in the corporate world, she has worked with fortune 500 companies, including those in the entertainment, production, and media sectors, such as Netflix, Fox, and Disney. In 2020, Sohee released her first book, Mommy Tracked: How to Take Authentic Risks and Find Success on Your Terms, with the goal of helping ambitious women tap into their inner core throughout the different phases of their lives. She’s now the author of her second book, The Inner Game: Secrets of High Achieving Women for Navigating Work, Life, and Mindset. Sohee, what a pleasure to have you here.

Sohee Jun [00:02:08]:
Dave, I am really excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:12]:
This is such a beautifully written book, and it is written through the perspective of a dinner party of thinking about a group of women sitting together and sharing their stories and experiences with each other to help each other to move forward. It’s such a wonderful way to frame a book and a story. And one of the stories that leapt out at me in reading the book is this one from Alice. And it’s in the context of what some of the best advice that people have received in their careers. And she says, “always have a point of focus. This was art advice given to me by my dad, an amateur artist, when 6 year old me was painting something for a country art contest. I had elements scattered all over the place. A tree here, a girl there, clouds everywhere.I ended up anchoring the piece with a large elephant. I won state with that painting. Now, I think everything in life requires a focal point, meeting the big takeaway, a main point of view. I wasn’t truly given a chance as a creative leader until I gave my audience whatever that was, Internet viewers or a table of executives, a clear focal point.”

Dave Stachowiak [00:03:25]:
What a beautiful message. It so important in our careers, isn’t it?

Sohee Jun [00:03:30]:
Oh, it absolutely is. And I love that you shared that story. And the way that I look at that is, for a leader, it’s really important at all points to be able to direct women and their team around a focal point, a vision, what is that North Star so that we can anchor to that when times get really frenetic and very dynamic. And isn’t that true, Dave? I mean, today’s world and the work world, it is so dynamic and ever changing. And so to have that north star focus, a focal point, I think, is really important when you’re working with high achievers.

Dave Stachowiak [00:04:10]:
Yeah. And this is as you said, I mean, the world is so complex right now in so many different ways in in all of our positions. And it is harder than ever to not ignore the noise, but to set some of it aside and to have a clear focal point. And you coach a lot of women who are navigating this. And I’m curious when you are talking with women leaders who are on the fast track, they’re doing great things. What are the kinds of things you hear from them that their managers do to help support that focus in an effective way?

Sohee Jun [00:04:47]:
Yeah. You know, I think the tie through that I hear from 90% of these women with a backdrop that they have so much going on at all times is that when they meet with their leader, it’s the ability to really hone in and listen to the concerns that the woman or that the employee has, and then to be able to tie that to why they’re doing something. And again, this is going to the focal point. Right? It’s what what are they in service of? Why are they working on the things that they’re working on, and having those conversations that help them realign and what I say recalibrate to what matters. And because the workforce is so dynamic, and things are ever changing, and we’re literally being pinged by all of the things in our lives electronically, and, you know, the ways that we get pulled, it’s really important. And that is what I see really resonates with these women is to have those touch points with their leader or their manager who says, look, this is what I’m working towards, and this is how you help, and this is how you are aligning your work to that. So let’s talk about what that is, and let’s talk about recalibrating.

Dave Stachowiak [00:05:58]:
I don’t know about you, but I have so many conversations with managers of all genders that are not clear what their what the higher level manager or executive really cares about and wants and the big picture thing. And we’re oftentimes, I find we’re doing creative things to try to figure that out, like, tactically. Like, how can you kind of read the tea leaves and figure out what they’re talking about in meetings and all that? It’s interesting how often that isn’t said out loud. Like, here’s the big why. Here’s the big picture behind this, and, like, helping orient someone to that.

Sohee Jun [00:06:31]:
Yeah. You know, and I think that goes to some of the habitual things. Right? When you get into a rhythm of how you interact in a meeting or in context with people, we often forget the foundational stuff. And that is what helps to cut through the noise is asking those simple yet really powerful questions. And as a leader, it’s having the wherewithal to say, okay, we’ve all been running at a fast pace. I know, for example, Sohee in front of me is working on X, Y, and Z, here’s how I’m going to help her refocus and work on the things that matter. And it is in those that question of what are you working on? Here’s what my North Star is. Here’s what we’re working towards as a team, and also for the leader to provide additional context.

Sohee Jun [00:07:17]:
Right? So the things that the person may need to know that will help them navigate what they should take off their plate and what they could put on their plate and refocus on. Those are all very nuanced and really important things that a leader can do to help get that point of focus.

Dave Stachowiak [00:07:35]:
There’s a 3 word piece of advice in this book that I love, and it is “do it afraid.” So it’s an invitation for us ourselves and both you and I have been down this road of course It’s also an invitation for the people we’re leading and I really screwed this up so he early in my career as a manager. Years ago, I had a woman who was working for me. She happened to be a woman that could have easily been a man. And she really had a very difficult time with conflict, and that became apparent, like, early in her tenure that anytime a situation would come up and it was in a very customer facing role, like, hours and hours a day of, like, directly interfacing with customers. And the reality was is, like, minor conflicts were gonna come up now and then to complain, things like that. And I sort of had decided, like, okay. I need to, like, embrace this her doing it afraid and helping to get better at this because I knew it’s not only gonna be helpful in the role, but just her as a human being. Like, I wanted her to do a better job at handling tough situations and leaning into conflict a little bit more or at least being able to navigate it. Right? Like, when it came up.

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:51]:
And so we had a day where a customer called on the phone. And this was back in the days when we had corded phone still. And we were in the office together. And the this customer called and had a complaint about something. I don’t remember what it was, but it was not a big deal. It was the kind of thing we resolved all the time. And I remember she put the phone on hold. She put the she put the handset on the desk, and she came to she was talking to me and saying, explain the situation.

Dave Stachowiak [00:09:22]:
She’s like, you need to finish this call because I don’t know what to do. And I looked at her, and I was like, oh my gosh. This is her moment to shine. This is the moment that she can start to work through this fear. And I looked at her, and I said, you can do it. This is a great opportunity for you to handle a situation. And and I don’t remember if I talked to her a ton.

Dave Stachowiak [00:09:48]:
It was like it was like 45 seconds because the customer is waiting on the line. Mhmm. And I literally picked the phone off the desk, and I handed it back to her. And she stared at me, and she stared at the phone, and she burst into tears.

Sohee Jun [00:10:04]:
Oh, wow.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:05]:
And I had the thought. I was like, oh my god. I thought this was her moment to shine. And it was the beginning of the end because she left about a month after that. And I’m sure it started from that moment.

Sohee Jun [00:10:18]:
Mhmm.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:19]:
And if I go back now all these years later thinking about that, and I was thinking about that when I was reading this in the book, in that moment, I may have still done the same thing, but what I would have done differently is I would have talked to her in advance about why you would wanna do something afraid.

Sohee Jun [00:10:39]:
Mhmm.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:39]:
And I would have framed the here’s the value of doing things that where you have fear, and here’s what it’s gonna feel like, and here’s what you’re gonna run to. And I didn’t preface any of that in advance. I just sort of, like, threw that at her one day. And it was really well intended, but it ultimately super backfired for both of us. And I was thinking about what would I do differently as a leader. And part of this is the do it afraid of, like, having a conversation in advance about what’s the value of that? Where are the times that you’re running into fear in your work? And how can I support you in starting to think about where can I come alongside you and support you in that moment?

Sohee Jun [00:11:15]:
Yeah. So, Dave, thank you for sharing that story. I think there’s so many ways and important things that you said there. And having led teams myself, I think I can definitely relate those moments when perhaps I pushed a little harder than necessary and when the person really wasn’t ready for that type of nudge. And what I will say is this, like, as a leader, I think it’s really important to understand the fears that the person has. So that takes conversation, that takes leaning into where are you developmentally in terms of the work. And that question that you asked is so important, which is how can I support you? And in that question opens up the possibilities of what I call cocreating solutions together. And I found in my time leading and also coaching women or leaders in general, it’s that the ability to co create is what brings them along in the journey way more, what I would call enthusiastically, than if they were just put on the spot or, you know, not brought along the journey.

Sohee Jun [00:12:22]:
And so that question, how can I support you is one that a leader I think it’s so important that they ask their employees and especially those that are high achieving or high achieving women because we wanna take on a lot? And these women wanna take on a lot, and they don’t often know how to ask for the support. So it does so many things in terms of allowing the person on the receiving end of that question to think about, okay, what do I need? And how do I move through this afraid and take that risk? And then for the leader to understand that person, what their fears are, and provide the appropriate guardrails. And I think, Dave, that’s what you were trying to do in that scenario. That’s what it sounds like. And providing the appropriate levels of pushing so that they do the action and also supporting them along the way. And I love that phrase that you used with that person, which is you can do it. Yes. It was sometimes we need that kind of boost, booster to say, like, you can do it.

Sohee Jun [00:13:22]:
I, the leader, believe in you, and I’m giving you the guardrails to do that and take that risk. So it’s a cocreation.

Dave Stachowiak [00:13:29]:
Yeah. I hear that. And I love thinking about this as the cocreation. And when you’re talking to your clients and they’re thinking about this and and working through the fear by the way you you tell a story in the book about having a week as a as a coach working with 3 different clients. All of them were, like, at these huge inflection points in their careers, and they’re all terrified.

Sohee Jun [00:13:53]:
Mhmm.

Dave Stachowiak [00:13:54]:
And and yet they’re moving forward. And when you see people doing that, what is it that the, in addition to asking how I can support you, what is it that the leaders and mentors are saying to them that help them to still move forward in the midst of that fear?

Sohee Jun [00:14:11]:
Yeah. What I see happening is that they help them make it manageable. So oftentimes, when they think about doing the thing and they’re afraid, there’s a level of overwhelm that’s coupled with that. And so for the leader to be able to say, here are some actions and steps that you can take to really help you move forward, unlocks the freezing that happens quite often when we are thinking about doing something risky, something that we’re afraid to do. And so I’ve sat with in front of my team or people on my team when they felt afraid and to be able to say, okay. Here’s a suggested next step. Tell me how it lands with you. And if it feels appropriate, you can take that next step.

Sohee Jun [00:14:54]:
It’s what I suggest as a way to move you forward. So, one, you’re giving encouragement and ideas and also that support that it’s okay to do that next step that takes them over that hump or the hurdle. So that’s definitely what I see is this solutioning in a way that’s very manageable and action like bite sized actions.

Dave Stachowiak [00:15:15]:
You talk about the phrase in the book, “fake it till you make it.” And I know some people really like that phrase and some people really don’t. And I’m wondering if, like, maybe we look at that a bit of, like, some of the messaging behind that. Because one of the women in the book says, wow. That’s really great advice. And then and another woman says, like, oh, not so much. I don’t care for it.

Dave Stachowiak [00:15:37]:
When you think about what comes out of that that’s positive for people when they think about faking it till they make make it. What is it that works for them?

Sohee Jun [00:15:46]:
I think when it works, it’s having the energy and the air and the presence that you know you’re capable of, and really stepping into that energy, and interacting in a way that allows you to be your most confident self. And the flip side of that is for those that don’t resonate with it, it’s like, no, I mean, I can’t fake it. I don’t have it. So not being able to lock into that or not being able to embody that energy. So that phrase has been around for such a long time. And for me, personally, I think that there are other ways to, embody confidence and build confidence, which is a part of looking back at all the different challenges that you’ve already overcome in your life and anchoring into that knowing. So there’s a lot of different strategies. I think that’s that’s what this points to.

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:43]:
Yeah indeed, and you know as you just said that I was thinking back to when I was a carnegay instructor carnegay had this really interesting thing. Part of what we would teach at Dale Carnegie was helping people build their confidence, and he would make the invitation very early in a course for people to go back and think about an achievement they’d had and then tell others about it as part of the course, and they would tell the story. And as you said that, I thought, wow. Wouldn’t that be like a great thing for a leader to do is for someone who maybe has said out loud or you have a sense that’s struggling a bit with confidence in whatever the situation is, is going back and, like, talking about some of the some of the achievements they’ve had in the past, like, what’s really worked that’s maybe a little bit in the same zone of this that you begin to see, like, oh, yeah. I’ve had success of overcoming things in the past. I have had and and it gets people a little bit in motion.

Sohee Jun [00:17:42]:
Oh, yeah. You know, I think there’s nothing more powerful than stories. And this is why I love the work of coaching people around mindset because at the end of the day, mindset stuff is about the stories that you tell yourself and how that frames an experience. And so I think, you know, Dale Carnegie was early on, they were probably pioneers in this space about look back in your own life. And I bet you, you, Dave, can probably think of so many instances in which you’ve overcome challenges. And what were the characteristics? And, you know, what did you embody? And what skills did you use? And all of those things that got you to the other side of it. I think that’s more powerful For me personally, and this is what I advocate for leaders, is to remind your employees, and especially if you’ve had a history with an employee where you have seen them grow and overcome challeneges, there is nothing more powerful than someone like a manager reflecting that back for an empoyee who is in a moment where they feel like, oh, can I do this? This feels really risky to raise my hand for a really big promotion or a really big project or leading a team, and I haven’t done that before. And when you have somebody that can say, look, I’ve seen you do this or version of this, and I know you can do it, that goes such a long way.

Sohee Jun [00:19:05]:
And I think leaders, are in a prime position to do that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:19:09]:
And often have the perspective to connect the dots. Right? It’s so hard to see when you’re in it. I’m struck so often, like, when I’m in the middle of something or struggling with something, like, I just cannot see it objectively. And then someone else who’s dealing with the same thing, inevitably, I can be like, oh, I I could see all the connection points. I could see, like, objectively, how you’d work through this situation. And there’s really something powerful also from a management’s perspective of often you’re a little further along in your career. Often you’re at altitude of what your direct reports may be seen or dealing with. And you can help them connect the dots in a way that people I think we all really struggle with if we’re just trying to do it ourselves.

Sohee Jun [00:19:54]:
Absolutely. And I know for me personally, to your point, I I tend to have blinders on too. So when I’m in it, it’s hard to look up and go, oh, yeah. You know, I’ve gone through a similar challenge before. So absolutely being able to connect the dots is one of the greatest things a leader can bring to the situation.

Dave Stachowiak [00:20:13]:
One of the pieces of advice that one of the women in the book highlights is the invitation to normalize the discussion about financial literacy and you write in the book “women can help support each other by promoting salary transparency it’s hugely helpful to share how much we make and have frank conversations about salaries, bonuses, and how we can support each other through tough money conversations.” This is something that sometimes, maybe even often doesn’t happen very much. And when I hear that it does happen, though, it really does make a big difference in what a leader says or maybe provides context for in a situation, doesn’t it?

Sohee Jun [00:20:54]:
Yeah. In my own career, when I was negotiating my way back to a media company, there was a colleague of mine who I was talking to about the role and I trusted him to get some guidance and input and feedback. And he shared with me just outright, you know, the range, salary wise for the role, and I didn’t ask for it. And I was actually really so grateful that he did. And I would say, I recall that because it’s the only time that that’s happened.

Dave Stachowiak [00:21:27]:
Mhmm.

Sohee Jun [00:21:27]:
And I think that it shouldn’t be a rare instance to your point, and that we definitely have to get comfortable with these types of conversations. Right? I’m there’s systemic things. There’s, I think, cultural things within companies that make it difficult sometimes to have these types of conversations. But as a leader, if you’re able to, when you bring somebody in or are interviewing, at least share the range of what, you know, the salary makes, I think that’s a starting point to create some sort of normalizing and safety around talking about pay and really embracing that we should be having these types of discussions. I think there’s so much sensitivity to how one is perceived when they ask that question. It’s you’d rather not. Right? So if somebody can provide that guidance like the the colleague did for me, I mean, it literally made me exhale and go, okay. Now I know how to advocate for myself.

Sohee Jun [00:22:29]:
What’s a starting point salary for me that I’m okay with? What other factors and compensation that I want and that are important to me? And these are the things that I think we need to really think about and invite. And it’s not even about saying, hey. Here’s the direct number that I know you should ask for or that I’m making or that the role gets. It’s more about just having the person think about what’s important to you, and how do you advocate for that, which information provides. And so I advocate well, I coach a lot around negotiation for women. And what the takeaway I want people to know is that it’s all a negotiation. It isn’t always the first time I’d ask, which I think many people, especially women, get into the mindset of. So it’s knowing that it is negotiation and that there’s some back and forth that’s okay and allowed.

Dave Stachowiak [00:23:25]:
Mmm. Tell me more about that. Like, when people struggle with that, when you see them run into situations that are difficult, what is it that goes wrong?

Sohee Jun [00:23:37]:
Well, I think that one, they are afraid to ask for what they want. And so they go way under or underestimate or put out a number, for example, if we’re talking salary, that isn’t really what they want. And so it’s giving them the confidence and role playing with me, how they would approach the conversation, what they do wanna advocate for, and also the macro pictures thinking about what’s important in the whole package. And sometimes it’s not just the numbers. Sometimes it’s, hey, you know, I want more vacation weeks, or I want stock options, or I wanna be able to work 3 days from home, whatever that looks like for them that’s important, and role playing so that they feel more confident in asking for what they want and need. And then really orienting them to the mindset that this is the first point of conversation and be ready to know what you’re going to wiggle, what your wiggle room is, and where you’re gonna give and take. And so that helps them understand and kind of breathe a little bit that it isn’t the one and done conversation.

Dave Stachowiak [00:24:48]:
What a helpful thing to keep in mind. Speaking of, working from home remote, one of the other pieces of advice that one of the women in the book mentions that was super helpful is making peace with the pendulum of work and life. And you have shared with me previously that a manager in the past, when you were returning to a company actually asked a question that made a really big difference for you.

Sohee Jun [00:25:17]:
Yes. So this was a time in my life when I was really struggling and grappling with, do I return to work? I took some time off, and I took a bit of a sabbatical to have my first child. And I’m a, you know, Dave, I’m a tester outer of things. And all that to say is for me to know if I wanna be a stay at home mom or do I wanna go back to work, I have to try these things out. So I left the workforce for a little bit to have my first child and really decided that, hey, work is fulfilling for me. I really do want to be in the workforce and use my knowledge in the background and my degree and all of that. And so when I landed my next role, the manager asked me a question that kind of just, you know, made my mouth open.

Sohee Jun [00:26:08]:
I don’t know if at the time it really did, but it was that powerful, and it really opened a lot of thinking for me around what are my boundaries, what does work life balance look like for me? So what he asked is this is probably a month into my orientation or onboarding the company. And he said in one of our touch bases, hey, you know, what’s your boundary in terms of when you wanna leave the office? And I was Dave, I was stumped. I’m like, oh, I haven’t even thought about it. I can do that. I can leave at a certain time and ask for that. So it really changed my mindset and really allowed me to advocate and say, yeah. You know, I have a 1 year old at home. It’s important for me to be home by 5 o’clock if at all possible.

Sohee Jun [00:26:56]:
And then, of course, being the employee that I am and was, it’s to say, okay. And if you need me beyond 5, of course, I’ll stay at certain times or I’ll pick up the the computer again if I need to once I, you know, put the kid my baby down. And also being able to say, okay, 5 o’clock most days is my boundary. It was so life changing for me and allowed me to start understanding what what are my boundaries.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:24]:
And and what a great thing that he just opened the door for that. I think a lot of times, if you ask almost any manager in any organization, they say almost to a person, like, we support work life balance and people prioritizing families and all that stuff. And yet a lot of people never actually then ask a question like that. And by the way, we’re not talking about during the interview process and all that, but, like, he already knew you were on board. You he knew you had a family. And it just opens the door to, like, hey. Let’s talk about this and talk about the reality of work and life that we’re all trying to balance and see where we land.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:59]:
And opening that door made a huge difference.

Sohee Jun [00:28:02]:
Yeah. You know, and I say it’s such a way to keep your employees engaged and really loyal to the company. And this is a topic that’s so prevalent and dominant in today’s work force. Right? How do we keep employees engaged? What keeps them at a company? And here’s the thing, as you know, Dave, post pandemic, we have a lot more options than we did, I would say. I would argue before pandemic where it was much more about heads in seats and how many hours you can do at the office. And so that’s the world that I was navigating. And to have had that question asked was really, I would say, groundbreaking. And then it allowed me to then advocate for, hey, I need Friday mornings to do x, y, and z with my other kid.

Sohee Jun [00:28:49]:
By that time, I had 2 kids. So being able to balance a little bit more of my need to be at work while seeing my kids a little more than I normally would. And then I think now post pandemic, we have proven that technology allows us to connect in different ways and to do work still and keep the business going and the lights running and the revenue coming in. And I think as leaders, we really need to be mindful of what balance looks like for the women or the people on the team and opening up those conversations intentionally.

Dave Stachowiak [00:29:24]:
Speaking of opening up that conversation, that is a question I know you get a lot from your clients, which is how do you balance it all? And how do you think about that? And how do you respond when you get that question from people?

Sohee Jun [00:29:39]:
It is, you know, I’ve been fortunate enough to speak globally, and I’ve been on so many wonderful panels. And it is literally question number 1 or number 2 out the gate. And so I know it’s on the minds of most women, this need to balance. And so what I say, 1st and foremost, is we really have to break up with balance and the notion of balancing. Because what that leads to, and I’ve seen it both in my clients and as a leader myself when I was leading teams, when we are in pursuit of balance and chasing that end goal, it really leads someone to burnout, and it leads them to be totally misaligned with, going back to our first question, the point of focus. And so it is this ability to rather than thinking about balance as the measure of success, it is stepping back and saying, where am I at this point in my career and in my life? And what are the priorities? What are the big rocks as they say? And then how do I honor that and say no more? It’s leaning into the discomfort of saying no, and understanding that you might not be able to do 12 hours every day in the office in this season of your life? And what are you able to do based on what your priorities are? So I really do encourage people to reframe it a whole different way and literally break up with the notion that they need to balance it all. Because, again, the end of that road is burnout.

Dave Stachowiak [00:31:18]:
Yeah. And we see so much of that in organizations today. And that word you said just a moment ago season, I think that’s like a word we all might consider in the conversations we’re having about projects and work in that. There are times that there are seasons that are busier or less busy. And in fact, I think I could fairly say you and I are both in in our own ways in really busy busy seasons right now. Like, you’re marketing a book. I am in the midst of handling applications for academy, which I do twice a year usually. And I I haven’t asked you this before, but I’m sort of assuming, like, you’re not in a moment of balance right now, and I’m not.

Dave Stachowiak [00:31:59]:
And if the aim was balance, I know I would feel like a failure this week this last couple weeks. But I do have a focus. And it I think part of the opportunity here is to think about what’s the season of things. Like, okay. This is a season for, like, a week or 2 or a month or quarter where something maybe isn’t unbalanced, but this is important for this season. And then something else is gonna be important the next season. And the ability for us from a leadership standpoint to open up a conversation about, like, what are the seasons in our work? What does this look like? What are times that we maybe need to work more and be have more hours? And what are times that flexibility is way more doable? I think is like a great door to open if we can.

Sohee Jun [00:32:42]:
Yeah. We need to definitely normalize those conversations. And as leaders, absolutely to say something like, it’s okay to not do it all. Right? And so what is the priority right now? Let’s have those conversations about, again, this is what the team is trying to accomplish. This is what I’m in service of as a leader that is tied to the company goals, the team goals, department goals. And, you know, what are your priorities and what will you pick up and what will you put down and what’s important right now? So all of that is tied into this notion of honoring the season, knowing that some moments to your point, Dave, I definitely am in that busy season. And I also know that in a month or 2, it won’t look the same. So leaning into that.

Sohee Jun [00:33:29]:
Right? So it’s definitely about connection points and having intentional conversations as a leader that allows for these things to come up that are so important in today’s workforce.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:39]:
And it probably comes back to right where we started of having that point of focus. Right. And, you know, speaking of having a point of focus, the word mindset probably comes up in your work more than any other word. And I have, 2 invitations for folks. One of them would be to we’re gonna put a link in the episode notes for going on your site. And there’s a resource there on identifying your dominant or prevailing mindset. I think it’s a really great starting point for thinking about this and starting to make shifts and so I think that’d be a great place for folks to go as a starting point and then of course the book itself. What a beautiful way you framed it with a dinner party and thinking about all the stories that are shared of helping each other support each other.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:22]:
Sohee Jun is the author of The Inner Game Secrets of High Achieving Women for Navigating Work, Life, and Mindset. Sohee Jun, thank you so much for your work.

Sohee Jun [00:34:32]:
Thank you, Dave.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:39]:
If this conversation was helpful to you, a few related episodes I’d recommend. One of them is episode 545, how to prioritize with Christy Wright. Christy in that conversation brings the perspective of seasons into our work and our careers. And, of course, we all go through seasons. There are times where there’s weeks months and maybe a year here and there where we’re out of balance for whatever reason, either on the personal side or on the professional side or something else. That’s just the normal part of being a human being and navigating everything. And yet a season is not 10 years. Right? A season is a short period of time.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:16]:
Thinking about seasons in that perspective and our careers I know is really helpful in thinking about how we balance, how we prioritize so So many wonderful invitations in that conversation with Christy on that. Episode 545 for that. Also recommended episode 573. How to protect your confidence. Nate Zinsser was my guest on that episode. Nate doing workout at West Point, looking at confidence in the research around it. And one of the big findings, course, in his research and many others is that confidence isn’t an on off switch. We don’t find confidence and then have it.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:47]:
It’s something we need to continue to work on. It’s an ongoing practice for all of us. He invites us in that conversation to think about some of the things that we can do to protect and build our confidence. Episode 573 for that. And then finally, I recommend the work of Adam Bryant on episode 653, the path towards your next promotion. Adam and I talked about all of the interviews and research he’s done for years in his long running column in the New York Times, on the corner office of interviewing so many senior leaders on what’s worked for them and what’s helped them to be successful leaders. And we looked at it through the lens of how do you get to your next promotion? And one of the points he makes in that conversation is bloom where you are planted. Oftentimes, we end up in roles that we didn’t anticipate being in.

Dave Stachowiak [00:36:35]:
I’m in a role today. I never anticipated being in hosting this podcast since 2011. Never anticipated that I’d be in this role this long. I’m so grateful to be in it. And yet it wasn’t the plan at all. And I think that’s really true in a lot of our careers. We end up in roles that we didn’t plan for, maybe a role we didn’t even want. And yet by showing up there and blossoming in that space and taking every opportunity to shine and to succeed, that demonstrates to so many others how capable we can be in building our skillset and broadening our perspective to lead across the organization.

Dave Stachowiak [00:37:13]:
And of course, so helpful to have a broad skill set for what’s next for each one of us. Episode 653, some great invitations there. All of those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. If you haven’t before, I’m inviting you today to set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com. It’s gonna give you access to the entire library of episodes that I’ve heard back since 2011. We’ve made it as easy as possible for you to track down exactly what you need and be able to find it in a way that’s gonna support your development. One of the places that this episode is filed under is talent development. We’ve had many conversations about it over the years of supporting building the talent and skills and others.

Dave Stachowiak [00:37:56]:
It’s one of many of the dozens of topic areas inside of the free membership. You can track down exactly what you need, plus all of the other benefits of free membership, including my weekly leadership guide that I send out each week to you on email to get access to everything inside the free membership. Just go over to coachingforleaders.com, set up your free membership, and you’d be off and running with us in just a few moments. And, if you’ve been using the free membership for a bit, one of the other resources you may wanna investigate is Coaching for Leaders Plus. It’s a bit more from me. Actually, it’s a bunch more for me on supporting you ongoing to help you to really get more insight, more support, and more perspective from the experts and from me personally. One of the things I’m doing each week is authoring a journal entry that I’m sending out on email to all of our Coaching for Leaders Plus members. Just recently, one of our members asked me, how do you get a micromanager to back off? Unfortunately, a lot of us have been in that situation where we’ve had someone who’s micromanaging us, and it is not an easy answer when that happens, but there are some very key tactics that do help in many situations to have that person back off a bit.

Dave Stachowiak [00:39:08]:
I captured some of those key tactics in one of the recent journal entries. It’s inside of coaching for leaders plus as is every weekly journal entry for me delivered to your inbox. If you’d like to find out more about that, plus all of the other benefits inside of Coaching for Leaders Plus, just go over to coachingforleaders.plus. Coaching for leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. I’ll be back with you next Monday for our next conversation on leadership. Have a great week, and I’ll see you back then.