559: The Leadership Struggles We See, with Muriel Wilkins

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
How do you thrive in your career when things seem to keep changing all around you? That’s a question one of our academy alums and I attempt to answer in this Saturday cast. This is Coaching for Leaders episode 659.Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:25]:
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. This is one of the Saturday cast. A few times a year, I air a Saturday episode that’s a conversation with one of our longtime listeners or members. The next regular episode is still coming on Monday, so this is an extra episode.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:57]:
These Saturday Casts are sponsored by the Coaching for Leaders Academy. The academy is a leadership development cohort of participant leaders who work personally with me to develop leadership excellence and empower each other. You can find out more about the academy and receive invitations for future opportunities to apply by going over to coachingforleaders.com/academy. Today, I’m so glad to have a conversation with one of our academy alums on a reality that so many of us run into in our careers, of course, our lives, and, yes, especially these last few years with everything that’s happened in the world and the pandemic of how do we thrive when things keep shifting around us and under us. And I’m so pleased to have Jen Byyny here today. Jen is an alum of the academy. She’s also a senior director of product design in the health tech space and a talented leader. And I’m so glad that, Jen, you’re sharing your story with us.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:01]:
Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Byyny [00:02:03]:
Thank you, Dave. Happy to be here.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:05]:
I am thinking about this topic of shift. Right? How much has changed for all of us in the last 3 to 4 years in the world and in our lives, of course. And sometimes it’s change happening around us and sometimes it’s change that we initiate on our own. And that’s, I think, maybe where our story starts in the last couple of years with you of, actually, some of the shift for you started with you making a decision to change something up. When did that happen, and what was that shift that started?

Jen Byyny [00:02:42]:
Yes. Sure. Last year, I had an opportunity presented to me that I was really excited about a company that I’d been a long time fan of, that had always been on my list of places I’d love to work. And the opportunity came up for me to join the company. And it was actually a very hard decision because I was at a company I really loved and surrounded by people who were very supportive. And it was just a really good working environment. So it was exciting in both ways where, a hard decision, but, you know, left on very good terms in the position I had been in. And then the company I joined it was a bit of a dream.

Jen Byyny [00:03:26]:
Right? So I was really excited to make the jump and make new connections and bring what I could to the new organization.

Dave Stachowiak [00:03:36]:
I remember us talking at that time when you made that decision to shift. And it was also about the time you applied for the academy. And so it was a lot of things happening all at once. When the academy applications opened and you decided to apply, what is it you were hoping to gain from going through the experience with us?

Jen Byyny [00:04:01]:
Yeah. The academy well, now having been through it, it really what I was hoping to gain was to become you know, I have this learning mindset learner’s mindset, and I figured there’s so many different ways you can grow. Like, I listen to your podcast a lot. I listen to several podcasts, but I feel like if I’m a sponge and I soak up and, you know, some things are gonna resonate more than others. But then to have the environment of a community and a cohort within the academy specifically of people I didn’t know necessarily before and then also coming from many different industries and backgrounds. That was exciting to me to be able to think about how can I build relationships and learn from other people in this academy environment? And we all have coaching for leaders and and the academy just in common from the very beginning. So everybody else probably had some form of interest in learning and growing as well. So that was really like, and then to just have the opportunity of it being a smaller cohort as well. We really get to know each other. And so over time, I got to learn how valuable that was. But going into it was definitely about personal growth.

Dave Stachowiak [00:05:20]:
I remember you and I talking then and the certainly coming in the academy and kind of the natural process. We’re all thinking about learning and growth as we do that, of course. And then, of course, you were taking on this new role, like, this new exciting opportunity. And a lot of things were happening, and there was a lot of energy and excitement around it. And then you got there, and what was the experience like of arriving and diving into this dream job?

Jen Byyny [00:05:45]:
Well, there was tons of energy. I felt very welcomed. I mean, it was interesting too because in exiting the previous company, I I felt just so supported, and people were very kind. Like, I’d never had a transition like that. Leaving a company, that was, like, such a great experience. And so I felt really good from that. And then going into this company that I was very excited to continue my career with, it was also an incredibly welcoming environment, and I was also excited to have the support of my colleagues in the academy who were, like, along for the ride with me. Right? So they were kind of my consistency across all of this where I was sort of walking away from a group of colleagues into this new environment, and it was really exciting.

Jen Byyny [00:06:37]:
I was really excited to be there, to work on the product, and to hopefully be part of making impact in improving how the company what they were putting out in the world and and bringing what I had in terms of experience to it. So I felt like I was really hitting a pinnacle in my career.

Dave Stachowiak [00:06:56]:
We’ve centered this conversation around the topic of, how to thrive when the ground keeps shifting under you. So spoiler alert, it wasn’t exactly what you had anticipated as time went on. What was different? What happened?

Jen Byyny [00:07:13]:
Well, there were a lot of changes in the organization, the new organization I had joined. And, well, with that, and in any kind of company, you have to learn how to adapt and ideally thrive, of course. But change was it felt quite frequent. So there there was that sense of background shifting, right? Where it’s like, okay, I think I know what I’m doing and now more changes are coming. Okay. I didn’t see that coming. So, and you get a little fatigued. Right? And then you start to think, well, okay.

Jen Byyny [00:07:48]:
I do wanna make impact here, but how can I do this in a way while I’m still just trying to bring stability, both for my own experience, but also for the teams that I was working with? So it kind of got a little bit more turbulent over time, even though I was trying to think of like, well, where can I bring stability in? But as an individual, you can only do so much of that. Yeah. So I learned a lot. We’ll put it that way in this process.

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:16]:
Yeah. You know, so often, we get into a new role, and it’s different than advertised. Right? And most of the time, I think, just not intentional. Like, everyone intends really well. They try to represent the position where the organization is. And it just ends up either being a little bit different perspective or you show up and things really do change. Like, I know some of in your case, like, things really changed around the organization, the industry a bit. And you all of a sudden you think you’ve gone through this whole process of change, and you think, oh, I’m done with all this change.

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:54]:
And at some point, you realize and my sense is you had a little bit of this experience. Like, oh, I thought I just went through all this change and was done with it, and it turns out I’m actually at the start of all this change.

Jen Byyny [00:09:07]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, part of the change that was happening was just different people coming in and having a shift in priorities and and even roles within the company. So right when you think, okay. Right now we’re going to work as a leadership team on change management and then more is coming. And then maybe product strategy changes, or company strategy or goals for the year, and then more organizational changes. And so right. Yeah.

Jen Byyny [00:09:36]:
It is. It is that back to that that shifting, that moving ground. Right? And so adaptability is really important, but it’s also trying to figure out, like, okay. Who am I aligning with in all of this process, like, that I’m working with, or who’s coming in new? And how are we going to work together in a way that is going to bring stability as a leadership team and model that for the organization.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:02]:
And you ultimately made a really big change after doing that for a bit that landed you back where you started, didn’t you?

Jen Byyny [00:10:12]:
Yes. Yes. So this is the plot twist you alluded to a little bit. I definitely couldn’t have written this story, but I really love how it evolved. So the organization I was super excited to join that would have been on my list. I was there for a little while. And then as I mentioned, there was so much change happening, but there was also change in roles, and that included my role. And there was a different kind of focus area for the space of design that I’m in that was available, yet the original role that I joined for was going to change.

Jen Byyny [00:10:48]:
And so it didn’t make sense for me to continue in a role that I wasn’t gonna be able to do the best for the company and myself. So that time ended at the company much sooner than I ever anticipated or would have ever planned, you know, when making a change with a work situation. And it came faster than I thought, and it was a little more abrupt than I anticipated. But at the same time in hindsight, things were changing all the time. So maybe I shouldn’t have been as surprised. That said, yes, along the way with a little break in between, I was graciously given an opportunity to return to the company that I had left last year. And there were so many wonderful things about that. And that’s where I am now.

Jen Byyny [00:11:38]:
And I learned a lot about this in the process. And I think that also, again, mentioning bringing us back, you know, having that consistency with the cohort academy was really given how it was like the over the course of almost a year that all all these things happen, it was really great to have trusted people who were kind of neutral to my personal situation, but then supportive of me.

Dave Stachowiak [00:12:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. And it it is interesting. Like, there is something helpful in all of our conversations of us all being able to be a little bit objective because we’re not in the organization and the politics, but we are really invested in each other. So, like, it’s a it’s a nice dichotomy that helps elicit some of that. And I’d I’d love to dive in on what you learned from this. And before even doing that, I mean, I just also wanna acknowledge, first of all, thank you for sharing your story.

Dave Stachowiak [00:12:32]:
And it’s also a story I’ve heard several times now. I’ve worked with several of our members, and I think of listeners and colleagues I know who have either because it was the great resignation which was the term that was you know being thrown around a lot or because an opportunity came up. And then I know several people in the last few years who have gone back to roles that they had previously. And it’s worked out really well, because something there was a change or an external event. And it’s really interesting how I think that that is an option sometimes. It’s not always possible. It’s not even always desirable. But it’s interesting that you ended up back in a place that was, not only similar, but in in the same organization in a very similar role and you learned a bunch through this and one of the things that you’ve told me that you really discovered throughout this process is that it’s about people, not product. Tell me a bit about that.

Jen Byyny [00:13:32]:
Absolutely. Yeah. It’s definitely you know, as I mentioned, I was super excited to make a change to a company whose product I was, you know, a huge fan of, had been using it for many years. And there were definitely great people in both organizations, for sure. But it was really about the ability to build relationships that were authentic and that you felt like you could trust people. And that’s easier to do when there’s less turbulence and less change happening around. Right? Especially if that changes with people within your work environment. But it is definitely you know, the value of having a space of trust and safety to do your best work is I mean, or maybe I should say it’s invaluable because it’s really like, okay.

Jen Byyny [00:14:20]:
I’m less focused or distracted on all these things happening around me. And now I can focus on why I’m here and how I can make impact and how I can further develop relationships with my colleagues so we can do impactful work together and build better practices around communication and efficiencies. And if we have strong communication and strong relationships, I mean, in any business, in any organization, probably in life in general. But if we have these things, if they’re both respectful and strong, I think that that is the recipe for doing great work. And I think that’s when great work happens.

Dave Stachowiak [00:15:03]:
When you think about people today in your work, what’s different about how you think about people than was 2 years ago when you were in this organization, but before you had left and then come back?

Jen Byyny [00:15:19]:
I think that it’s important to really acknowledge or recognize who believes in you. Because the people who believe in you and who are your cheerleaders, they’re gonna be there for you. They’re gonna have your back, and they’re gonna help set you up for success, whether it’s helping you come back to an organization, or naviagting the time in between, or even helping you find what might be around the corner for you or the next opportunity, so I mean, again, that’s I couldn’t have written this story. I couldn’t have predicted it would have gone this way, but it’s just so awesome to know that there are people who are like, I recognize you for the work you did, and that work is super important, and we need that work here. And sometimes, even in coming back to this organization, the people who have also returned, you start to learn about each other because you’re like, oh, you came back too. It’s like within within my first few weeks back, I wound up 2 other people who are engineers who are like, oh, yeah. I left and came back as well.

Jen Byyny [00:16:29]:
And it’s like, okay. Yeah. Like you’re saying, it’s not quite as rare as it might seem, but it still is unique. And with that, it it was only possible knowing and having those connections to people that know I have something to offer and who believe in me.

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:48]:
I was thinking about what you were saying and reflecting on some of my own career too. And sometimes, I found that the people who were my biggest champions, I didn’t really recognize in the moment like at the time I was working with them it only became later through some event, or conversation, or a transition for one of us that it really became apparent how much that person believed in me and vice versa. Right? Me me with them. And I guess what I’m curious about is is there anything you’ve discovered through this process that’s helped you to recognize that now in the moment? Who’s there? Who shows up? Who believes in you? Those relationships that you may invest more in than you otherwise would have?

Jen Byyny [00:17:36]:
Yeah. I think it’s interesting to think about in hindsight as you’re mentioning who endorsed you? Who supported you? But then to sort of now take that and go, how do I identify that, you know, in the moment or today? And I think it comes down to authenticity and just natural connection. And that if you think of who do you look forward to having meetings with, or who do you look forward to getting a chat from, or whether it’s a, oh, you’re in this meeting too, or we’re on this project together. Like, I would say pay attention to that. I think that’s something that I’ve been doing too. And, also, the other thing is and I think this is actually stretching even back from the pandemic, which is, you know, learning from these circumstances that can have huge impacts on our lives. Right? It’s just leaving the space for grace. You never know where someone’s coming from on a certain Monday morning or day of the week that you’re having a meeting or, you know, where they’re coming from.

Jen Byyny [00:18:39]:
But just making sure that you’re whether you have a strong relationship and an authentic and natural relationship with them or not, just giving people that space and that you don’t know where they’re coming from as they enter into the conversation with you or the video meeting or even in person if that’s happening. And I think that allows for receptivity, and I think that allows for that room of growing the relationship. And then when those things happen is when it’s like, okay. We have this this thing in common that we’re trying to do. We have this common goal or we have this common thing that we’re trying to do on this project or in this area that we’re focused in. And so I think that is probably how I’m identifying who I make those natural and authentic connections with more in real time now.

Dave Stachowiak [00:19:37]:
Yeah, how insightful to really paying attention to, like, the person that you look forward to seeing that you’re excited to, like, bump into. Doing that more intentionally now what’s different like when you notice that, when you do that what’s different about your behavior and how you do things today than was maybe a few years ago?

Jen Byyny [00:20:01]:
That’s an interesting question. I haven’t really even thought about that for myself. That’s different. I think well, actually, as I think about this now, the areas of that I focused on with the academy, I’ll just share that one of them was, thinking about modeling equanimity. So that was I think that that is something that while I focused on it during the academy, that that’s a different way of just navigating our days and how we interact with people. I think I’m doing that better now than I was a few years ago.

Jen Byyny [00:20:42]:
So not only did that happen over time and over events that changed in my life, but it was also a a learning of an area I was leaning into and focusing on in the academy with the support of you and others.

Dave Stachowiak [00:20:55]:
And how cool that those lined up at the same time to support you.

Jen Byyny [00:20:59]:
Yes.

Dave Stachowiak [00:21:00]:
You also said the word grace a minute ago. And maybe it’s just because we mentioned the word pandemic a bit ago. I was thinking how we’ve I think a lot of us recognized at least I feel like I have. I should just speak for myself. I feel like I am trying to be a more graceful person during this time. And the thing I’m thinking of recently, speaking of pandemic, it was time for our annual COVID shot. Now we’re a few years past the pandemic, of course, and or the main part of the pandemic. And hopefully, God willing.

Dave Stachowiak [00:21:33]:
And and I scheduled at our local pharmacy to bring in our kids to get their shots, and me, and filled out it was like 45 minutes of paperwork online the website keep crashing all these things right and I booked it and booked all the kid appointments and everything and we get there and we had like architected the entire day around getting to this appointment at all- anyway this whole thing. And we get there and the pharmacy person at the window says well, I’m we don’t have kid shots here The inventory didn’t come in. And and and there were no apology, like, just we don’t have it. And I’ve I asked, well, gosh. We set up all these appointments with the birth dates. Like, what what happened? And she’s like, man, we just didn’t get them. And I had that moment where I was like, really? Like, we’re like 3, 4 years into this now.

Jen Byyny [00:22:28]:
Mhmm.

Dave Stachowiak [00:22:28]:
And we did all this in advance. And then I had this thought of that would have been the person I would have been 5 years ago really sort of like a little bit more angry and frustrated in the moment and I think we’ve all had those situations with the customer service situation where something didn’t work and I thought okay and I still got my shot and the kids got their flu shots and then we sat down in the waiting area of the pharmacy, and there’s this giant poster, like, giant poster, like, 4 feet high. Thank you so much for your grace during this difficult time with the pandemic. Blah blah blah blah. And I’m like, on one hand, sort of happy that I did have a little bit of grace, but at on the other hand, looking at that and being like, okay. It’s not that big a deal. Okay. You gotta come back next week.

Dave Stachowiak [00:23:16]:
Your life is so hard. Whatever. Right? And I just I love that invitation to you of thinking about so often, I think, from a leadership standpoint. And the reason I’m sharing that story is we are all responsible for numbers, results, moving things forward, of course. And it’s easy to forget about the grace part of that and providing that for people. And have you found a way to, like, have grace show up more as the ground shifting? Because I feel like I’m still working on this. I’m curious what if anything has worked for you to catch yourself in the moment?

Jen Byyny [00:23:51]:
I think the the one thing that comes to mind is to just remember what intentions are. Like, the intention of well, maybe think of an example here where it’s like we came forward and we were doing a presentation, and we thought it was gonna go this way, and it didn’t. And it actually kind of took a 180 and it became kind of a tough environment, for example, like, you know, I’ve had these experiences. But then it’s like, okay. Alright. We’ll debrief and we’ll recover from this, but re recognize that nobody intended to go in and come out of this time together the way they did. The intention was all right, and it was all good, and it was mostly aligned. Right? And so I think that that is one of the things that I find both a way of looking at okay.

Jen Byyny [00:24:48]:
So here’s what happened. This is how we went into it. Here’s what happened. Now how can we realign again with intention? So the next time we have a conversation like this, it’s much more successful. So that’s the one thing that comes to mind as you asked me that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:25:07]:
And it’s such the work and I would dare say the responsibility of leadership to be the person who is able to do exactly what you just said to frame the larger intention the why the, as Dale Carnegie would have said, the nobler motive right what are we really here to do Like big picture. And sometimes that’s really apparent, but it also is often the case that it takes someone in a room or a situation to, like, say that out loud. And if the person with the leadership role doesn’t, it’s interesting like the people do make their own assumptions. There’s something about being able to frame that, that really does make a big difference. I I love that you were thinking about that and and using that.

Jen Byyny [00:25:52]:
Yeah. I think it’s also thank you. I think I think it’s important to just let recognize I’m with you all on this. I felt that too. Right? And I to be fair, I mean, I’m watching senior leaders, how they show up, how they navigate, how they present, how they deliver tough feedback. And I’m looking at what’s effective, but I’m also looking at the how. How are they communicating this? Because the what probably needs to be said if things are kind of going in the wrong direction. But the how is super key.

Jen Byyny [00:26:28]:
And even though you know, tough feedback is hard to take, when it’s taken with or when it’s given, I should say, with humility and with just recognizing that people are on the other end of this hearing this. And and then and then bringing that sort of tone through the sort of follow-up conversation. It’s like, it’s okay. We’ve got this. It’s like giving people a moment to sort of let it land, sort of digest it in a sense, and then catch their breath. Any other metaphors here. But also give them a moment to find their their energy on it again so we can redirect a little bit. So I think that there’s grace, but there’s timing that goes with that too a little bit.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:19]:
Yeah. Indeed. And I think it comes back to what you said earlier. It’s not about the product. It’s about people. Mhmm. Or it’s it’s about the relationships and communications. And it’s so interesting.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:32]:
And you know this from being in so many of our academy conversations as different as we all are and all the industries that people come to in the academy and the perspectives, how many conversations become so similar? Like, when we get into, like, the core leadership things that are going on for people. And it’s usually not product stuff. It’s usually what are the difficult conversations that need to happen? How do you give feedback? It’s all the things you just said. Right? On those things, yes, there’s contextual differences, of course, everywhere. But the core human things become so similar that we’re all dealing with. And that’s why that that focus on people is so key.

Jen Byyny [00:28:14]:
Yep. There’s so many universal truths to leadership, and I think that comes across through, I mean, all of your episodes and the amazing content of your Coaching for Leaders library as well. It’s like it doesn’t matter what industry or what focus people have. And that was when we had a very diverse cohort for the academy from, you know, the restaurant world, and the health world, and some just more business focused. But you’re right. These things are universal, and and you can apply so many learnings to your own personal situation.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:48]:
Speaking of learnings, you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, so you know that I often ask my last question, which is what you’ve learned, but also what you’ve changed your mind on. As you think about this experience over the last couple of years of, like, so many things shifting. Some of them, like, you shifted. Some of them external, like, almost all of us. Right? A ton of shifts happening in both places. As you reflect back, what’s one thing that you’ve changed your mind on?

Jen Byyny [00:29:15]:
Yeah. I mean, we have talked about it is about the people, but, you know, it’s really about having the faith that there are people who believe in you and who will fight for you and having and maintaining those relationships naturally, not forcing them. Because I think there are cycles and seasons of our lives where people are closer and we’re more connected, and then maybe we have some distance and then we’re connected again. But the ones that, you know, you support and that support you, sometimes, you know, it’s reciprocal. Sometimes you’re more supportive. Whatever the case is, that’s where the energy that’s where it’s important to put energy is into people because you you we can’t predict our futures, but we can really find meaning and value out of these relationships. And that could help steer the course of how our careers evolve or our next opportunities. So that has been- I guess it’s just been a learning.

Jen Byyny [00:30:18]:
I just didn’t recognize it before. Like, how as we were talking about a little bit earlier, like, there are people who truly endorse you, and it’s okay to call on them. And it’s okay if they’re gonna extend an invitation. You should take it. Go for it. That means they believe in you. If they believe in you and you have an opportunity to run with that, then you’ve already got that that confidence around you. So then you can focus on really doing your best work.

Dave Stachowiak [00:30:48]:
Jen Byyny is the senior director of product design and an alum of our academy. Jen, what a pleasure it’s been to support you and so grateful for you sharing your story with us.

Jen Byyny [00:30:59]:
Thank you so much, Dave. I’ve really enjoyed everything with the academy and the podcast. So thank you for all you do.

Dave Stachowiak [00:31:11]:
If this conversation was helpful, a few related episodes I’d recommend. One of them is episode 3 47, the power of weak connections. David Burkus was my guest on that episode. He’s been on the show more recently, but I’m thinking about that conversation with David because of the point he makes that when we are looking for a new opportunity or a something to challenge us in our thinking, one of the best ways to do that is to reach out to our weaker connections. The people who have known us in our careers, who have pulled for us, who are in our corners already, but maybe we haven’t talked to in a bit. Those are often the people that surface the things that aren’t on our daily radar screens that we do hear from those who are closer to us. Just a wonderful invitation to be thinking about that more broadly from a career standpoint, especially during times of transition. Episode 347 for that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:14]:
I’d also recommend episode 550, how to win the long game when the short term seems bleak. Dorie Clark was my guest on that episode. We talked about her book, The Long Game, and thinking about our careers through the lens of the medium and long term. And when we do, the short term often seems challenging. How do we work past that and how do we win even if we lose? It’s one of the foundations of that conversation with Dory episode 550 for a lot more.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:16]:
And then finally, I’d recommend episode 607, how to quit bad stuff faster. Annie Duke was my guest on that episode, and we talked about the, falsehood that we should never quit, that winners never quit. We’ve all heard that many times before. The reality is those that find the most success often in their lives and careers make intentional choices on when to quit at the right time. And in that conversation, Annie and I talk about how do you know when that time is right to set something aside, and when’s the time to keep going? Episode 607 for more on that.All of those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. And often I get asked whenever we open up our academy for new applications, Could I hear a bit from folks who have been through the academy and what their experience has have been like? And many of those conversations we have aired on past Saturday cast over the years. If you set up your free membership at coaching for leaders.com, you can go into the episode library and find the topic area for Saturday cast. You’ll see dozens of past conversations with many of our academy graduates speaking about what they’ve gained from the academy, all of the details of their experiences, and you get to hear from them in their voices about what they have done in the work in the academy to be able to help move forward their leadership development and their careers. If you’d like to find out more about the academy, just go over to coaching for leaders.com/academy. There’s a place there to be able to enter your information to get an early invitation the next time we open up the academy for applications.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:14]:
All of that, of course, inside of the free membership, you can go over again to coachingforleaders.com, set up your free membership. And if you haven’t yet found out about Coaching for Leaders Plus, it is another way for you to continue to build your leadership development to find, more details on resources that will accelerate your learning and help you to get more insights on what you’re hearing here on the podcast. One of the things we do inside of Coaching for Leaders Plus is to have a monthly expert chat. I invite a guest expert who has been on the podcast previously into a conversation with our members. And unlike me asking the questions, it’s our members asking the questions. We record those every single month, and we send them out to all of our members who are involved with Coaching for Leaders Plus. Plus, we give access to all of those past conversations 3 years now of detailed conversations with our members and the experts on how to utilize their work to help everyone to move forward. All of that you can find inside of Coaching for Leaders Plus.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:16]:
It is one of the key benefits. For more, go over to coachingforleaders.plus. Coaching for leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. This coming Monday, 2 days from now, I have our next regular episode coming. I’m glad to welcome to the show former US Air Force Fighter pilot, Robert Cujo Teshner on how to prevent a team from repeating mistakes, an important conversation with him, and I’ll look forward to seeing you back for that on Monday. Take care.