746: How to Make Small Talk with Executives, with Lorraine K. Lee

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Ugh. Small talk. We all love to hate it. And we also know that most of us are going to end up in small talk with someone who’s got a lot of influence. It may be an executive or an external stakeholder. Either way, handling it well can open up doors. In this episode, how to make small talk go better. This is Coaching for Leaders, episode 746. Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:33]:
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. A conversation that has emerged in my career many times, that is one that has always been a little bit uncomfortable until more recently, is making small talk. Specifically with making small talk with executives or other stakeholders or people who are in powerful roles or positions and how to do that effectively a little bit more naturally and in a way that supports the visibility certainly of ourselves and our own careers, but also supports the visibility of our teams and our organizations. And today, I’m so glad to welcome a guest. It’s going to help us to do this just a little bit better.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:27]:
I’m so pleased to introduce Lorraine K. Lee. She is passionate about helping ambitious professionals go from invisible to unforgettable in the modern workplace. She’s recognized as a LinkedIn Top Voice in workplace communication and presence and spent over a decade as a founding editor at top tech firms like LinkedIn and Prezi, where she worked on core products including LinkedIn Daily News and LinkedIn newsletters. She is the author of Unforgettable Presence: Get Seen, Gain Influence, and Catapult Your Career. Lorraine, what a pleasure to have you on. Welcome.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:02:02]:
Thank you, Dave. I am so excited to be chatting with you today.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:05]:
Oh, I’m so excited to talk to you too. You and I share something in common. We are both self described introverts. And so the kinds of things that you teach people today, and to some extent I do too, at getting better at having a presence, communicating well, are the things that I think for both of us haven’t come as naturally. And before we get into how to get better at this, I’m wondering before you did what you’re doing today and teaching people how to do this, how did this go for you earlier in your career when you were in situations where you made small talk with executives or at least attempted to.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:02:47]:
Just a lot of awkwardness, I think.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:49]:
Yeah.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:02:50]:
Where I knew it was important to get that FaceTime so sometimes I would be brave enough, you know, at an all hands or something. The executive lingers behind and brave enough to go up to them, but not always sure how to create a fruitful conversation in a way that I was memorable to them and that I was able to also impress them at the same time. Because an executive’s time is so, you know, they’re limited on time, they’re go, go, go. And so you really need to impress, capture attention in those small moments.

Dave Stachowiak [00:03:23]:
I recall a story you told in the book of shadowing a very high level person, I believe at one of the studios early on. And that didn’t end well, if I recall from the story.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:03:41]:
Yeah. So I had the chance, like you said, for a day to shadow a president of a major movie studio. And we sat down together and she asked me, what do you know about the studio? And I was so embarrassed because this was, I think junior year of college, so embarrassed because I had not done any research ahead of time and here was a super, super important person, high powered person sitting in front of me and I was just so, so mortified that I didn’t have anything to say in that moment. And she was very kind and said, well, you know, anytime you’re, you’re talking to an executive, you need to be prepared. And I really took that to heart moving forward for the rest of my, my career.

Dave Stachowiak [00:04:26]:
Indeed. And you have really taught people how to do. As I was thinking about what you said, like there are times that early in your career you were brave of like lingering behind, talking to someone. I think you were way better at this than I was. Because my sort of default setting early and even into middle of my career when running into powerful people, executives, important stakeholders, was I think I would most commonly default to one of two things. Either I wouldn’t show up, like if it was a networking event or whatever. Yeah. Or I would.

Dave Stachowiak [00:05:06]:
How could I articulate this? Kindly run and hide. You know, like not engage, not walk up to someone. There were occasions where I did that, but I found that it was really, boy, it was really scary. You know, as someone who’s more introverted. It was, I didn’t want to be awkward and yet I found that I often was in those situations and I just didn’t know where to start. And that’s, I think that’s the thing is like, I didn’t like small talk. I didn’t want to engage in small talk. And it always seemed so awkward to me.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:05:43]:
I think a lot of people would agree and I used to feel the same way. Do we really have to do the small talk, especially in the office? Right. We pass each other in the hall or we run into each other in the kitchen area. And it’s. It did used to feel super, super painful to me as well. But what I’ve come to realize over time is that small talk is one of the most powerful ways that we connect with each other and make conversation. If we’re doing it well, which is hard.

Dave Stachowiak [00:06:16]:
Yeah, it is, and it’s important. And I had to change my mindset on this. That small talk, as annoying as it sometimes felt to me, I realized through experience that small talk was the avenue toward medium and big talk, to continue the analogy, right. Of being able to engage with people. And I just needed to get better at getting started. And if I got better at getting started, then the conversation would often go way better. And it was just that getting started part that was the challenging part.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:06:56]:
I talk a lot about this concept of autopilot small talk, which I’m sure all the listeners at some point have fallen victim to because it’s so easy. Right. To do. And that is when we are having those conversations where we do not even need to think about the question that we’re asking, and we do not need to think about the answer that we’re giving. So the typical. How are you? Oh, I’m good. How are you doing? I’m good, too, thanks.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:07:25]:
That’s the painful small talk. To your point, Dave, we really want to elevate that so that we are actually getting to know each other and putting some intentionality and thought behind it. It’s a way to be strategic as well about your career.

Dave Stachowiak [00:07:38]:
And isn’t it interesting, like, how good we are at that with our friends and our family? Most of the time, like, we’re just, like, so natural. And I think it’s because we don’t have that feeling like we’re on stage so much. And that being able to grab some of that and the principles we use in everyday conversation and just to tweak it a little bit and be a little bit more intentional is a really good starting point. And I think that for me, that’s been helpful of, like, having that intentional thought of stepping onto a bit of a stage, both for myself and also for the organization and team that I’m representing, because there are times when you’re just more likely to be on stage at an event or an interaction and having that mindset helps.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:08:31]:
I love what you said about the team part because, yeah, if you do lead a team, having that impactful small talk can be a way to elevate them again. In those small moments that you capture the executive’s attention, how can I put my best foot forward, but also lift up the team and make sure that their work is being known and recognized? Because we are all so busy, we’re go, go, go. There’s a billion messages, you know, being sent every day, all day. And so it’s really important to break through that noise. And this can be one of the ways that we do that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:09:03]:
Yeah, indeed. And when I think about times when we all need to step on stage, most of the time they’re fairly predictable. And I suppose there’s always the situation that comes up in our lives where we randomly bump into someone at the grocery store that is a stakeholder or someone that we admire in our industry or something like that. But if I think about all the times in my life that that’s happened, those are like really, really a tiny percentage. What’s more likely is, hey, today I’m going to an all hands meeting and it’s likely I’m going to bump into an executive or two, or today I’m going to a major customer presentation, or in my case, I’m showing up at a conference. Today, of course I’m going to run into situations where those small talk situations are going to come up. And I think if we can index for 80 to 90% of those situations and just be a little bit prepared, boy, it makes the starting so much easier, doesn’t it?

Lorraine K. Lee [00:10:08]:
Yeah, for sure. I think that’s where the conversational, the conversational threading comes in to make that happen.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:14]:
Yeah. And you talk about this a bunch in your book on conversational threading. Tell me about that. And what does that look like and what does it sound like?

Lorraine K. Lee [00:10:24]:
Conversational threading is a way to have better conversations, both in terms of asking questions that elicit better answers, and then also as the person responding, you are giving better answers because of the question that’s being asked, or even if the question is not good, you can be thoughtful enough and know about this concept where, okay, I have to give a little bit more in order to keep this conversation going. And so what you want to do is you want to ask questions that elicit threads and then you want to also answer in a way where you’re giving multiple threads for the question asker to pull on. So what that might look like is, is let’s say the person is not asking a great question, but you want to keep the conversation going. So this happens in the office a lot, or virtually. Someone might ask, oh, how was your weekend? And it can be so easy to say, oh, it was really nice, relaxing, how was yours? But to take it one step further and implement conversational threading instead, you can say something like, oh, my weekend was great. It was really relaxing. I was able to go to the spa and then I ran my usual three miles. And now you’ve given the question asker two threads to pull on.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:11:42]:
Right. They can ask you about the spa, they can perhaps ask you about your running hobby. And so they ask you, they follow up, and then you start having some back and forth. And hopefully now when you ask the other person how their weekend was, they’re giving you something to pull on as well when you ask a good question. So a transformation of that initial question would look something like, what was the highlight of your weekend? So we’re breaking out of autopilot. And now that you’ve asked me about the highlight of my weekend, previously I might have, have, I might have responded with, oh, it was good, but now I have to think, oh, highlight. Okay, let me actually think back to what I did this weekend and, and then again, because you asked me a specific question, I will respond in such a way that will allow us to have more back and forth and get to each other beyond the superficial.

Dave Stachowiak [00:12:32]:
It’s what we were talking about a bit ago of the kinds of conversations most of us have with our friends and family and people really comfortable with is there is a very natural back and forth, a threading of human connection. And by being a little bit intentional, like you just said, of adding in something that someone could then latch onto, how helpful that is to then have a little bit more of that back and forth and to then see where they want to go with the conversation.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:13:05]:
Yeah, yeah, it just makes it, it just makes it so much easier and so much more enjoyable and just so much more interesting. Right. Small talk gets a really bad rap, but it’s because we’re not doing it in the ideal way. We’re doing it in the autopilot way where again, we’re just staying really surface level. But it’s these small moments that really, that really make the impact, that really leave an impression behind. And the foundation of great work and enjoyable work, I believe, is relationships. And so small talk is going to be one of the best ways to grow those relationships.

Dave Stachowiak [00:13:41]:
I made the mistake that you describe of autopilot. Many times early in my career and I would wait for the other person to offer something into the conversation. And sometimes they would, and the conversation would go better. A lot of times they wouldn’t. Because to your point, especially when talking to an executive, someone who has a very busy schedule, they’re often thinking. Their default is to think efficiently and just have a very casual interaction. And the thing I had to learn was to hide less and to add in something like you just suggested of what brought you joy this weekend or what made you smile or what’s interesting to you outside of work right now, something that was just like, especially in a social setting, like a networking event or something like that, it would often open up the conversation. And then my more extroverted friends and clients, I find sometimes it’s the opposite.

Dave Stachowiak [00:14:40]:
It’s talking a little bit less, it’s saying something and then giving that other person a chance to respond and allowing that threading to happen. Just like you described.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:14:51]:
I want to call it something that you said, Dave, that I think is really wonderful. Is that the questions that you ask, what brought you joy? What are you excited to be doing? Those positive words and phrases that primes people to think more positively in that interaction with you? What happens a lot when we join video calls, for example, and we ask, how are things going? And you hear so much of, you know, just crazy, like work’s been bad or work’s just, I’m so stressed out. And that really starts the call off on a not, not great energy level, right? Not a great footing. And you’re not really associating that other person with, with something positive. But when you can ask questions like you said, Dave, like what. What are you excited about? Or what made you smile this week? Then people think and they think of something happy. And you’re associated with that positivity and you’re starting off a call on a positive footing. So I think that’s also a very meaningful way to connect with others as well, using those specific words to prime people to think differently or to feel differently with you.

Dave Stachowiak [00:15:58]:
Many years ago, I was doing work for a Fortune 500 company in my career at Dale Carnegie. And we had been working with this organization for a number of years. And I had been in meetings with the president of this organization two or three times over several years. And so he knew who I was. I knew who he was, certainly, of course. And one day I’m walking into their headquarters building and I was going to see someone I don’t remember who, but I saw him coming in from the parking lot, and we were both gonna get to the elevator lobby about the same time. And I had this thought of.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:16:40]:
I think I know what you’re gonna say.

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:42]:
Run and hide was my first thought. Right.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:16:45]:
Like, just slow down. Oh, you left something in the car. Yeah, exactly.

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:49]:
Exactly. And what I. And I very quickly thought to myself, it would be really good for you and your career and for Dale Carnegie for you to ride the elevator up with him. And I ended up speeding up a little bit. And I sort of like, I did the natural thing where, like, I kind of bumped into him, but it was like, it was intentional. Like, I had sort of, like, made sure we rode the same elevator. Right. And I do not remember what our conversation was.

Dave Stachowiak [00:17:18]:
It was 20 seconds on the way up the elevator, but it was what you described. It was. We talked. We did some small talk. It was not anything related to Dale Carnegie or work. It was just a nice, casual interaction. I referenced something we had talked about in a previous, even though I hadn’t seen him in, like, a year, and I thought nothing of it. And then six weeks later about.

Dave Stachowiak [00:17:43]:
Someone mentioned that he had said something in a meeting that actually ended up being pretty impactful as far as our work with their organization. And I sort of, like, did the calendar back to that event, and I thought, oh, my goodness. And it was a time that I really realized the importance of how powerful small talk could be, of just engaging with someone at a human level and reminding them of the relationship. In many cases, you already have. And one of the reasons I got to thinking about that conversation is because of the wonderful invitations that you make on how to actually prepare for an impromptu conversation. And like, on its face, you might think, like, well, how can I prepare for something impromptu when I don’t even know who it is I’m going to be talking with or when I’m going to bump into them. But to our earlier point, I think most of the time we can anticipate when we’re going to likely be on stage for a few minutes or a few moments and one of them is in the office.

Dave Stachowiak [00:18:47]:
And you write, “have a few sentences planned out describing your role and what you’re working on. Anchor yourself in their minds by saying who you work with, whom they also work with.” I love that invitation. What does that sound like?

Lorraine K. Lee [00:19:01]:
That might be something like, hi, Dave, you know, really, really nice to meet you, or, nice to see you today. I’m Lorraine. Wanted to quickly introduce myself. I work on Amy’s team in editorial. And right now I’m focused on X, Y and Z. And Amy, or you want to name someone who at least will have name recognition of. So it can be Amy, it can be Amy’s boss. Right.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:19:27]:
Whoever sort of leads the function, who that executive would know. And then going beyond just the job title. Right. I think this is a really missed opportunity. In the book, I also talk about this concept of a upi, a unique and powerful introduction. And so many people treat introductions as a throwaway moment. Not intentionally, but we kind of rush through it. It’s usually job title.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:19:52]:
Maybe we mention our manager and that’s it. But by taking 10, 15 extra seconds, that’s really where the magic is. Right. I’ll take a few extra seconds and say, oh, here’s what I’m excited to be working on right now, or this is a big project that we’re working on with the data team or, you know, whatever. Just some additional information so that, again, the executive has the context of who you are, and now they also know a little bit about what you do and the impact you have and the value you bring. So it doesn’t have to take much time. But being prepared for moments like that, again, that’s. That’s just, you know, leaving a strong impression in those really important moments.

Dave Stachowiak [00:20:29]:
And the real distinction I’m hearing there is you’re talking about what you’re doing more so than you’re talking about your title, whatever logistical thing. And it’s the, it’s the what I’m doing, and it’s the relationships that I have and finding a way for that to emerge in the conversation.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:20:46]:
Yep, exactly. We can’t assume that people know what we do, even our managers. Right. We have to be just so intentional about everything and really take charge of our careers. I talk about becoming the CEO of your own career and the mindset shifts that need to happen in order to do that. And you are going to be your own best advocate. And as much as you might have an amazing manager, you initiating that conversation, you chasing the executive to catch up with them. Right.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:21:19]:
That’s such an important, special moment. And your manager is of course going to hopefully try to advocate for you and mention you, but for you to do it yourself, you’re not leaving things to chance.

Dave Stachowiak [00:21:29]:
Yeah. And thinking about preparing for what may seem unpreparable, which is the chance meeting. Boy, what a good practice, maybe for all of us to have thought through what are the two or three sentences that I say? And maybe I Put a reminder in my calendar once every 30 days or once a quarter that I know what those two sentences are when I bump into someone like this. And then when you do, it’s just very natural. You already have decided and it doesn’t matter when you bump into them or where or being prepared if you just. It only takes a few moments. But just doing that in advance, boy, it makes that go so much more smoothly.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:22:13]:
I love that. Yeah, it’s hard to. Or we don’t think about practicing for moments like these because they are so impromptu and they feel so fleeting. Right. It’s just a minute, two minutes. But like you said, writing, no shame at all in writing something down, maybe practicing it, revisiting in case it needs to get updated, maybe you get promoted. Right. So this is something that can and should transform and change as you change, but something that you should also be thinking about regularly, like you said, Dave, to make sure that it’s up to date and representing you well and that you feel comfortable saying it.

Dave Stachowiak [00:22:49]:
You also remind us about social events. Again, we may not know who we’re going to run into, what kind of conversation it’s going to be, but we certainly know at a social event, especially if it’s a professionally related one, we’re going to run into people and you say “at social events, ask about their hobbies and passions outside of work and see if you can discover any shared interests. Keep your questions open ended and share a little bit about yourself to keep the conversation flowing.” I think about what you said earlier on offering something of saying, hey, I went for a run this weekend or here’s something I’m just doing as a hobby right now that’s fun or something with the intention of yes, you’re sharing a bit about yourself, but you’re also giving the other person opportunity to latch in on something that’s not just work related.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:23:33]:
I have found, you know, social events, happy hours, they can be a little awkward or like it takes a while to warm up. And even executives who are very good at talking to people, I have talked to executives where they almost seem a little bit uncomfortable at first and you know, there might be different reasons for that. But to your point, any conversation you have, when you can be that person to offer up information and to really get that conversation going, even sometimes before you’re maybe asking a question, people really appreciate that and it gives other people permission to say, oh, okay, Lorraine or Dave, they feel comfortable sharing a little bit about themselves or they just shared something about themselves, maybe I should do the same because this person is open and they’re willing to have that conversation and get to know each other. And so yeah, it can be really powerful simply offering up some information first even before asking a question.

Dave Stachowiak [00:24:27]:
Yeah, and this is the kind of thing that also like 30 seconds of planning in advance. I mean it’s not 30 seconds, but it’s a couple of minutes of okay, I’m going to run into people at this event of the people I run into that maybe I don’t have any kind of connection with, I don’t know where to go. What would be one or two or three things that are just interesting in my life right now that I’m comfortable sharing in a professional space and might get a conversation going is something sports related or it’s a hobby or it’s an interest or something you read or whatever. But that, that gives people an opportunity to latch onto something. And boy, just like thinking about that through before any major event, if you’ve got like two or three of those go to’s then and you can use those in lots of conversations at the event.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:25:11]:
Yeah, 100% executives. Sometimes I think they feel awkward too with small talk and especially with a lot of people wanting to talk to them. So it is so powerful to be that person who can make conversation easier, facilitate. And really you’re kind of helping them out in a way too, which is a nice way to think about it.

Dave Stachowiak [00:25:30]:
And you said something big a moment ago that I’d love to highlight, which is keeping it open ended or maybe that was in one of the quotes that I think sometimes we feel like, and I certainly have felt like, okay, I start this conversation and I need to know exactly where I’m going and have the whole conversation figured out. And if I don’t, like I better not start it in the first place. And just the mindset of again like talking to a friend or family member of let me offer something and then give the other person a chance to then decide which way they’d like to then go. And then you sort of follow their lead like whatever they latch onto or don’t. Sometimes people don’t latch onto things like okay, whatever, no big deal, but whatever they latch onto is just kind of like it’s almost like seeing like okay, what door do they pick? And then whatever door they open, you just think, oh well, let’s just walk down that door and see where that goes and whatever, like the other things they didn’t latch onto or connect with and it’s a little bit of that lightness, that casualness of getting in that space that we do in our personal situations.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:26:48]:
Approaching conversations with curiosity I think is always a great thing. And to your point, Dave, sometimes we want to have control or just especially if it’s a high stakes conversation or a person who’s important, we want to know where it’s going to go, we want to make sure the conversation is good. But if you can loosen up a little bit. Yeah. Approach it with a sense of curiosity and then actually be more present in the moment. Right. Because we need to listen to what people are saying and adjust accordingly versus we have an idea of how the conversation should pan out. I think people can feel that energy too.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:27:26]:
And you’re going to feel more relaxed in those moments.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:29]:
Oh yeah, indeed. You also highlight the importance of quick encounters, which of course we can’t always prepare for. And you invite us to offer some work adjacent information about yourself. For example, I listened to this podcast the other day about this topic that really made me think about insert company priority here. And I was thinking about that and thinking, oh gosh, again, that’s one of those things that I’m never going to know if I’m going to bump into someone in an elevator on a plane or whatever. But I certainly could have this week, this month, this quarter, sort of a go to. I listened to this article, I listened to this podcast episode. I saw this YouTube video of something that would just be a conversation starter.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:12]:
And as you point out smartly, especially if it’s someone in your organization or industry, it’s something that’s tied into what you know, people in your organization, industry are already thinking about.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:28:23]:
That one is, is a very strategic one as well because it shows that you are staying up to date on what’s going on in the industry, industry trends and who knows if it is something that you know, if you’re sharing it, it’s something that you enjoyed, like maybe that executive listens to it. If it is something that is so relevant to what you’re doing and then that could be a nice follow up for the next time. Maybe when they see you, who knows, maybe they’ll initiate and let you know. But I think it also shows that you are. Yeah. Someone who wants to keep learning and someone who is who’s thinking about company priorities.

Dave Stachowiak [00:29:02]:
And one thing that we haven’t really said yet that I have certainly found myself and I’ve seen with clients over the years is that there’s something powerful about just reps of doing this that the more that you Put yourself on the stage for even a few moments, or just find that courage at one conversation at an event or bumping into someone, as you do that more, it actually gets easier. And the fear that a lot of us feel of getting these conversations starts to dissipate a bit. And we do better at just having the natural conversation that we would in any situation. Situation.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:29:42]:
I 100% agree. Yeah, I know it’s sort of obvious advice, but that practice really does go a long way. And I was someone who. Well, I’m still introverted, but I also used to be a lot shyer. And I also. When you said that, it made me think of networking events and how I just. I was just. It was just really hard to go up to people.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:30:05]:
And eventually I started just seeing someone alone and I would walk up to them and I was helping them. Like, they were just so thankful to have someone go up to them. So when you sort of frame it like, oh, maybe I’m helping people and other people might be too nervous, but if I can be that person to push past those nerves or to push past that discomfort, people are really appreciative. And then that, yeah, definitely a muscle that you keep working.

Dave Stachowiak [00:30:31]:
Indeed. And then once you’ve done that once at a particular event, then all of a sudden it’s like, oh, it’s easier to talk to the second or the third person. And we are living in a world now where the pendulum is swinging back again. We had, of course, during the pandemic, so much was virtual. And now we’re seeing the pendulum swing back, as it always does, to. There’s more hybrid. There’s certainly. There’s a lot of things that are happening virtually still, but there’s also a lot more, like, okay, people are coming back into the office.

Dave Stachowiak [00:30:58]:
People are going to events, obviously. And so there’s an opportunity to do more of this. And it’s why I’m so grateful that you’ve written this book right now, because it is a great masterclass on how to do every aspect of this. By the way, we’re only hitting on two pages in the book. There’s so much more from your resources on just how to brand yourself and your career, how to use LinkedIn, which, of course, you’re an expert at doing, of having worked there and position yourself so well on the platform. So I hope folks will dive in to the book and utilize it as a starting point for having better conversations of all kinds. And, Lorraine, I’m thinking about, as you put together this book and have been teaching people how to do this better. I’m wondering, the last year or two as you’ve done that, what if anything, have you changed your mind on?

Lorraine K. Lee [00:31:47]:
Well, one would be, well, I guess this has been like a little bit of a longer journey. But one would be that small talk is a good thing. It is so easy to feel like it’s just this thing we have to do at the start of a call. But it’s very, like I said, very powerful way of connecting with each other, building relationships and then sort of related to that and we’ve touched on that a little bit during our time today. Is that public speaking- I only started doing it in 2021, so was certainly something that I was so, so nervous about. I would have trouble sleeping the night before and I still get nervous now and I think everyone gets nervous. But I know how to hone those nerves now and not let them be debilitating. But the ability to speak well on stage in a meeting, that that’s going to be one of the best ways that you can stand out.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:32:40]:
So perhaps it’s a nice balance, small talk, more spontaneous. Then you have your prepared public speaking as well.

Dave Stachowiak [00:32:46]:
Lorraine K. Lee is the author of Unforgettable Presence: Get Seen, Gain Influence, and Catapult Your Career. Lorraine, thank you so much for your work.

Lorraine K. Lee [00:32:56]:
Thank you for having me. Dave.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:03]:
If this conversation was helpful to you. Three other episodes that I think go with it so well. One of them is episode 316, executive presence with your elevator speech. Tom Henschel was my guest on that episode. Tom, a dear friend and executive coach. In that conversation we talked about maybe not what you may think from the title of the episode. It’s not about getting into an elevator and having your 30 second speech prepared. It’s actually how that really should go.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:30]:
As Lorraine and I talked about a bit in this conversation. Conversation threading of saying something, allowing the other person to respond and then following the path where they may lead. I have seen Tom do this so beautifully in conversation when meeting other people and seeing other people ask him what do you do? And he’ll say, I’m an executive coach. And then he’ll stop and he’ll wait to see what the other person says. Do they ask a question about it? Do they go on another topic? And he’ll follow the path and open up, up. A beautiful conversation. It’s so masterfully done. And he talks in episode 316 on how to do that and how we can do something similar when we’re engaging someone.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:05]:
Again, a great compliment to this conversation. Also recommended episode 706, how to Talk to people who intimidate you. Shandy Welch was my guest on that conversation. Shandy, also a talented executive coach and one of our Coaching for Leaders fellows. Shandy and I talked about this reality that’s behind a lot of our discomfort from with small talk and making conversations and networking in our careers, which is oftentimes we’re trying to connect in and build relationships with people that intimidate us. And all of us have experienced that. And we talk in that conversation of how do we work to get past that? In the midst of some of that intimidation, we feel. Shandy talks about her experience as a coach, not only herself, but in helping leaders to do that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:50]:
I talk about my own experience and my career and talking with people on the podcast who have sometimes intimidated me over the years. And I think it’s just a wonderful and lovely practical guide to do that. We’ve had many people tell us that conversation was really helpful. Again, that’s episode 706. And then finally recommended episode 717, a key tactic for way better conversations. Alison Wood Brooks was my guest on that episode and we talked about conversations around small talk a bit, but we talked more broadly about conversation. When you’re sitting down, you know you’re gonna have a conversation with someone, especially in a professional context, and how do you actually make sure that that conversation goes well or at least increase the chances that it will? And one of the key tactics we talked about in that episode is topics showing up, having thought about topics that you may bring to the conversation in advance. It is contrary to what a lot of us think to do naturally.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:46]:
Certainly contrary to what I’ve often thought to do naturally. And yet in experimenting with it in the last six months since that episode aired, I can tell you it is so powerful. It adds in so much to conversations to have done a little thinking on topics in advance. Allison shows us exactly how to do that in episode 7 17. All of those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. I’m inviting you today to set up your free membership at coachingfotleaders.com because it’s going to give you access to the entire suite of benefits inside of the Coaching for Leaders library. And one of those resources, speaking of conversation starters, that has been a lot of fun for me to put together over the years. And I think about in starting conversation with people, you don’t run into this so much today, but years ago you’d used to go into as a guest in someone’s house or their office and you would see just stacks of books in their library of things they’d read.

Dave Stachowiak [00:36:38]:
And I was always so interested in looking at what someone’s read and what’s on their coffee table and what magazines they subscribe to and have that be a starting point for conversation. And these days that doesn’t happen as much just because so much is digital, of course, in our lives. So I’ve tried to replicate that just a bit by creating a digital version of my library that everyone can access as part of our free membership. Once you’ve got your membership set up at coachingforleaders.com you can go inside, click on Dave’s library and you’re going to see all of the articles, YouTube videos, episodes from other podcasts, links to resources, TED talks that I found over the years. I have cataloged all of them. I have made it searchable by topic and with links to everything. So if you’re looking for a resource, it’s a great not only a glimpse, but actually getting into my library. It’s the same one I use to be able to find things that I’ve cataloged over the years, all the things I pass along in the weekly Leadership Guides.

Dave Stachowiak [00:37:33]:
All of it’s there for you for free. Go over to coachingforeaders.com set up your free membership, then click on Dave’s library. You’ll have full access to all of that. Speaking of getting better, one of the best ways to get get better at communication is to get more practice with the right coaching. It’s why I bring leaders together in community with other leaders at key inflection points, which is something we face, all of us, in our careers. The Coaching for Leaders Academy helps leaders to elevate their leadership at those key inflection points. It’s a group coaching experience entirely led personally by and done in community with other peer leaders who are working together to help each other to move forward and get better as leaders. If you’re at an inflection point right now and we might help, go to coachingforleaders.com/academy.

Dave Stachowiak [00:38:26]:
There’s more details there. Plus there’s a button you can request a early invitation. If you’d like to receive an invitation for our next applications to the Academy not long from now, go ahead and go over to coachingforleaders.com/academy coaching for leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. I’ll be back next Monday with our next conversation. Have a great week in the meantime, and thanks as always for the privilege to support you.