742: The Problem Leaders Have With Authenticity, with Sabina Nawaz

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Every leader I know intends to be authentic. Unfortunately, we sometimes use authenticity as an excuse not to do the critical work of calibrating our actions. In this episode, how to avoid that trap so we can show up more genuinely for others. This is Coaching for Leaders, episode 742. Production Credit: Produced by Innovate. Learning, Maximizing human potential. Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:43]:
And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. And one of the things that many of us have heard as leaders is the importance of authenticity. Showing up in the way that we want to, that’s aligned with who we are, our values. And yet sometimes we struggle with this and we run into problems with this word authenticity and how we show up today. A conversation on how we can show up in a way that is, yes, true to ourselves also helps us to serve people better and support the organization in a way that is really true, authenticity and integrity. So pleased to welcome Sabina Nawaz to the show. She’s an executive coach who advises C level executives and teams at Fortune 500 corporations, government agencies, nonprofits and academic institutions.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:39]:
During her 14 year tenure at Microsoft, she went from managing software development teams to leading the company’s executive development and succession planning efforts for over 11,000 managers and nearly 1,000 executives, advising Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer directly. She’s the author of You’re Boss: the Become the Manager your Want to Be (and Others Need). Sabina, such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Sabina Nawaz [00:02:05]:
Thank you so much, Dave.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:07]:
I was so struck by the book and so many of the helpful ways you have, like framed some of the things that we often think we know as leaders but sometimes get us into trouble. And there’s two words that you highlight early in the book that get leaders into trouble. And those two words are, yeah, but what is it that’s problematic about those two words? And beginning our thinking with those two words.

Sabina Nawaz [00:02:45]:
Those are very, very common words that are used by a large variety of my clients. And it’s wonderful, the debate, the discussion. They’re scientists, they’re engineers, they’re mathematic mathematicians. They are people who have gone up the ranks through vigorous analysis, debate, discussion, lawyers, finance people. And whenever we start to discuss something and we go, could it be this, could it be that? They go, yeah, but. Yeah, but this. No, yeah, but what about. I don’t think so.

Sabina Nawaz [00:03:20]:
So, yeah, but a but really blocks generative conversation Generative conversation, meaning conversations that build on each other. And this is particularly important for managers when you’re managing teams. There is no manager who’ll say, I don’t want to hear from my people. I don’t want to empower them. But in reality, when they use ya, but it shuts people down. The second piece is an internal piece of which is when I say ya, but I’m closing down possibility. I’m closing down options about why else I might be doing something as a coach when I’m giving somebody feedback and they start ya butting me. In fact, a cue is the harder the ya, but it’s likely the closer I have gotten to a vein of truth, because sometimes we protest too much when it’s hitting close to the truth.

Sabina Nawaz [00:04:20]:
And the truth, let’s face this, is difficult. It’s difficult to confront. Not only that at work, as managers, it is a muscle that is not well used because people around us don’t tell us the truth. I often say the minute you become a manager is the minute you stop hearing the full truth. Because who wants to tell someone in a position of power what they don’t want to hear? A ya, but ensures that you keep the gates of truth forever closed.

Dave Stachowiak [00:04:51]:
You highlight a version of this that you describe as so pervasive and so wrong. And the version of the of the ya, but that you identify is, yeah, but this is just how I am. What’s so problematic about that?

Sabina Nawaz [00:05:12]:
Well, you hinted at authenticity, Dave, in your intro. Yeah, let’s dig into that. Of course, you’ve got to be you, and so notice I’m using the word and. One way to counteract ya buts is to have a sentence that says yes. And it’s not that your argument is not true, is it? The only truth. So what if we conjugate it with an and and Increase. Increase. The possibilities comes from the improvisational practice of yes, and where actors stand on stage and no matter how absurd an offer another actor makes, they have to yes.

Sabina Nawaz [00:05:56]:
And their way into improvising. Authenticity is very widely used. It is very widely revered as a gold standard for how we lead, how we are, whether we lead or not. Here’s the problem. Authenticity is neither singular nor static. Neither singular nor static. Think about this, Dave. Do you show up exactly the same way when you’re hosting podcasts as when you’re working with clients, as when you’re showing up with your partner or family at home or when you’re out with your friends?

Dave Stachowiak [00:06:41]:
Nope.

Sabina Nawaz [00:06:43]:
Nope.

Dave Stachowiak [00:06:43]:
Different in all those situations.

Sabina Nawaz [00:06:45]:
Yes. Now I imagine that there is some thread, some kernel of sameness that’s there across all of those, but there are also differences. So authenticity is often. Which of those is you? All of them.

Dave Stachowiak [00:07:02]:
Yeah.

Sabina Nawaz [00:07:02]:
I don’t imagine that you are putting on a complete act as a partner, a sibling, a parent, a child, and then you’re your true self only when you’re on the podcast, for example. These are all genuine expressions of you, but they’re role dependent, they’re context dependent. We are shaped by the roles we occupy and by the external context that we find ourselves in, and we respond to those. This is part of my thesis in the book that it is not power, but pressure that corrupts us. The pressures on us in each role to do things a certain way, to perform a certain way, to meet expectations a certain way shape how we act. And sometimes they corrupt our true intentions, which has negative impact as a manager that we then try to yeah but our way out of. But how we respond is not authentically singular. It’s authentically pure, plural.

Sabina Nawaz [00:08:10]:
Let’s go to authenticity not being static. Are you the exact same person you were when you were 5 years old?

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:17]:
Thank goodness. No.

Sabina Nawaz [00:08:19]:
Right. Why are you saying thank goodness, Dave?

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:22]:
Oh, because so much I’ve learned and grown and done. I mean, I think even five years ago, like how much I’ve learned and do things differently and cringe sometimes. When I go back and listen to past interviews on this podcast, I often.

Sabina Nawaz [00:08:36]:
Say it is great if you cringe when you look at past haircuts, past clothing choices, past podcasts, past ways in performing. I cringe, certainly. My husband and I had a nonprofit theater company for five years, and I so cringe when I think about my very first performances on stage as opposed to my last one. That means you’ve grown, you’ve developed, you’ve changed. So if you think of authenticity as singular and static, then you’re still the five year old having a hissy fit on the floor of the grocery store because your mom didn’t get you the candy you wanted.

Dave Stachowiak [00:09:15]:
Yeah, well, and I think this goes right along with your point that in the book, pure authenticity is a complete fallacy. And I think that as I think about that, I also think about the message that a lot of leaders have heard, that we should show up as leaders authentically in our work and in the workplace. And that advice is really well intended. And yet I think sometimes we hear something different and we don’t parse the distinction between, as you point out, authenticity and integrity. How do those two Words show up differently for you when you’re advising leaders.

Sabina Nawaz [00:10:03]:
Underneath a lot of that authenticity are your values, integrity being one of them. So are you in integrity with your values? But here’s the other thing. Your values will clash with each other as well. When we say, I mean, let’s pick the five year old example first of all. Right. Like you would likely say, oh, I try to be honest with everybody. I’ve got a lot of integrity. I stand up for things.

Sabina Nawaz [00:10:32]:
And I have this example in my book where my son was when he was very young and somebody had shown up whose stomach was protruding over his belt. And my son pokes his belly button and says, looks like you need to go potty. And he says it in such a loud voice that it was impossible to ignore and pretend it wasn’t said. Now that could be definitely cringy for parents, but also cute or understandable when you’ve got a toddler. As an adult, you would never say that, even if you might think that. So are we always telling the truth? As managers, we often say we need to buffer our teams. We can’t give them everything that’s coming up down the pike raw, because they would go into a panic. So are you really telling the full truth? So even that is in question.

Sabina Nawaz [00:11:25]:
Absolutely have values. Absolutely. Stick to your values and recognize that values can also be in conflict with each other. For example, I’ll pick an extreme example here. One of my values is love and one of my values is honesty. Okay, great. Now I love my kids. Let’s say that my kid had a medical condition that required a really expensive medication that was in that pharmacy behind locked doors.

Sabina Nawaz [00:11:59]:
And let’s say that I couldn’t afford to give that to my kid and if he didn’t get it, he would die. Yes. I’m picking a very extreme example. Would I hesitate one minute to break into that locked cabinet and get him the medicine, steal the medicine? Absolutely not. I would totally go do that if that meant life and death for my child.

Dave Stachowiak [00:12:23]:
Yeah.

Sabina Nawaz [00:12:23]:
So there goes my value of honesty because the value of love triumphed over that value of honesty in that particular instance. So I think it’s really important to not hold these as absolute truths, but to look at them contextually and make. We know we make trade offs. Let’s hope those trade offs are in integrity with our purpose, with our intention, with our goal. If my goal is to save my child’s life, I’m going to prioritize certain values over others. If my goal is to be completely transparent at work I’m going to prioritize certain actions over others. If my goal is to protect my people further, my actions are going to be very different.

Dave Stachowiak [00:13:12]:
You write, “authenticity is primal, but integrity demands that we take a beat and assess whether our primal instincts are serving our present day intentions. The Shakespearean wisdom of to thine own self be true has much merit, but in the modern world, we’ve distorted authenticity and wield it as an enlightened excuse not to do the grown up work of calibrating our actions to align with our intentions.” I think of that beautiful paragraph and the phrase that you do hear from people a lot as, as do I in my work that, yeah, but this is just how I am. It’s how I show up. I am sometimes a jerk and sometimes I don’t listen really well. And that’s just who I am. And when you hear that from someone you’re working with, who’s often leading a large team or large organization, when does that show up and how do you approach it?

Sabina Nawaz [00:14:13]:
The best way I can answer this is through a story, Dave.

Dave Stachowiak [00:14:18]:
Please.

Sabina Nawaz [00:14:19]:
And let’s call her Janet. Janet is a CEO. She is incredible. She has taken this organization from near bankruptcy to thriving. She has completely revamped her leadership team to be fully functional a players. She has increased employee satisfaction, customer satisfaction, you name the metric, and she has skyrocketed it over her tenure. And as you can imagine, Janet likes to move fast, doesn’t suffer fools. Well, doesn’t have a lot of patience, is right.

Sabina Nawaz [00:15:02]:
A lot. And therefore doesn’t always listen really well. And not only does she do a lot of ya buts when people speak, her first response when people say something is no, no, no, no, no. That’s not what I mean. No, no, no, no, no. This is how she responds. And she says, I am a good listener. And I say, have you ever heard how you’re first responding to things? By no, no, no, no, no.

Sabina Nawaz [00:15:26]:
She’s like, yeah, but that’s just me. That’s how I respond to things. So what we worked on with Janice was it’s not just how you’re responding to things, it’s how others are responding to your response. Every action. I mean, let’s go back to Newton several hundred years ago. Every action has a reaction, right? Are you aware of the reaction your action is having? And would you still say that’s just me if you realized the reactions these actions were having? Now she’s like, but we’re really successful. We’re killing it. We’re Crushing results.

Sabina Nawaz [00:16:06]:
We’re crushing the competition. It’s obviously working. Why should I change it? And this is a major fallacy. People think they’re succeeding because of these traits, not despite them. Because of these traits, not despite them. So there’s a lot of things that she’s doing great and that is helping with that success because she’s super smart, she’s very strategic, she helps up level the team’s thinking and moves them in the right direction. She knows how to hire great talent, all of those things are great. And think about how much better they could be if she could get out of her own way.

Sabina Nawaz [00:16:49]:
So I showed her what was the impact of these actions where she’s just got to be me or this is just how I am. People were spending three times, because we measured this, people were spending three times as much time that they spent with her divining what she actually meant or commit seeing about her. So if they spent an hour with her, you’ve got three hours of multiple people not working either confused because they’re too afraid to ask her for clarification since she has no patience and she’s going to take their head off. And so they’re talking to each other to try to make meaning of what the boss said or talking about how horrible she is and how they’re going to get back to her. And you know, by the way, there’s research that shows that when employees feel badly treated by bosses, they even deliberately make mistakes in their work. They’re willing to sabotage their own results, their own performance, just to get back at the boss. So people were spending a lot of time outside meetings doing this. She was also frustrated because several people didn’t get things right the first time.

Sabina Nawaz [00:17:58]:
They had to keep coming back to her. What I refer to in my book as the rock caring exercise where go fetch me a rock. Oh, no, that’s not the right rock. Go fetch me another rock. But never taking the time to really explain what kind of rock you want. And so she was. Her time was getting wasted in addition to their time and their productivity. Once she started looking at really seeing the impact of her actions, she started recognizing, oh, I need to see it from their perspective.

Sabina Nawaz [00:18:31]:
And that I gotta be me. Got tempered with I’ve got to be me in the context of a. We see a lot of times people succeed by being me. As in focusing on my superpowers, my strengths, and getting promoted and continuing to get promoted up the management chain is sometimes the riskiest part time in your career. The riskiest time in Your career. Yes, of course, it’s time for celebration. But once the bubbly settle, you realize that something that you were doing so well is now being seen in a very different light by other people. I mean, an obvious one.

Sabina Nawaz [00:19:11]:
If you’re a micromanager, you’re being seen as a micromanager. Your strength is attention to detail. But I had this other client who was incredibly strategic. She would go to meetings with senior people and be quiet initially to see how the room was, read the tea leaves, who’s speaking, who’s not speaking, where the wind is blowing, and then speak and land her point in a way that they could hear it using their language. Guess what happens when she gets promoted? She is viewed and labeled as manipulative. Oh, she just wants to go where the wind is blowing. She flip flops on her own point of view. She’s sucking up to the boss.

Sabina Nawaz [00:19:56]:
She was shocked when she heard that, and so was Janice when she recognized just how much time the team was wasting. Because I’ve just got to be me.

Dave Stachowiak [00:20:06]:
I love the language that you highlight in the book on some of the things that if you either hear yourself saying or you catch yourself thinking, might be a bit of a warning sign that you’re falling into this trap. A little bit of just kind of the authenticity, the singular authenticity. And one of them is like, okay, that’s just how I am, right? And I’m not the kind of person who like starting like with that phrase. Also, that’s the way I’ve always done things and it’s worked for me, which comes up a lot. Like when you, when you hear that, that’s often a warning sign, right?

Sabina Nawaz [00:20:46]:
It absolutely, like flashing neon warning sign, it’s worked for you. Is first of all, are you really aware of what’s not working? Could you go From A to A + if you remove that barrier? Absolutely. And secondly, it may have worked for you up to this point, but it’s not going to now. Because now your job, as you said, Dave, is no longer to do the work, but to hold the space in which others are doing the work. It requires a whole different kind of skill. Here’s the other problem with that’s the way I am, or that’s the way I’ve always been. It’s actually not necessarily true. Just yesterday I was talking to a client and she said she just had a milestone birthday.

Sabina Nawaz [00:21:33]:
And she said, I just wake up every morning feeling sad. And I said, really? What’s up with that? No, on the surface, this person is incredibly successful. Has the house has the white picket fence, has everything that, to an outside view, would be trappings of success. Well, I just feel my life is going by me and I’m not audacious enough. I want to wake up feeling audacious, not sad, and I’m just not audacious. And I said, hmm, is that really true? Do you have any examples from your life where you’ve been audacious? Well, I started a business from scratch and made it very successful and it sold. Wow. That, to me, sounds audacious.

Sabina Nawaz [00:22:13]:
What about you? I took on this bully and got them to shut down because that was not the kind of culture we wanted to create. Okay. So as we started talking. So why was she shying away from this plethora of data she had that she was audacious? Because sometimes it’s hard to own certain things for fear. We hide our own fears behind authenticity. If I put myself out there as audacious, are people going to want to take me down? Are people going to challenge me more? It’s easier to say I’m not that audacious person.

Dave Stachowiak [00:22:49]:
Yeah. I find often that when I end up in a conversation like this with someone and they sort of intellectually get it, of like, okay, yeah, like, I get how maybe I’m getting in my way a bit, and I get how I could use some different wording and behave a little differently. And yet there’s sort of this mindset that they still have where. But I’m just not being true to me. If I really shift on this, I’m just not me anymore. And I’m wondering, when you see people who really start to change their mindset on this, what is it that helps them to begin the movement on it?

Sabina Nawaz [00:23:40]:
Yes. Really, really tiny steps. This is not about changing overnight. This is not about a metamorphosis instantly. I don’t know the data, but a butterfly doesn’t emerge from the chrysalis overnight. It takes probably weeks.

Dave Stachowiak [00:24:03]:
Yeah.

Sabina Nawaz [00:24:05]:
So this is thinking the mindset you need to shift is to an experimental mindset. I often tell people, yeah, this might very well be exactly what you need to be and how you need to show up for the next five years. We have discovered that there is a cost to this. Would you be open to experimenting? And if it doesn’t work? You know, the purpose of an experiment is just to gather data. If it doesn’t work, you can go back to exactly with the way you were. And an experiment, that’s really modest. The challenge is, this is why it Backfires too, is that the people you and I work with are high octane, super successful people, high achievers, type A personalities, go big or go home type of people. If they take this on with that mindset, it is not going to work because it would be the equivalent of someone who doesn’t know how to swim.

Sabina Nawaz [00:25:05]:
And to say, okay, I’m just going to go into the open ocean and swim five miles, well, that’s not going to happen. It’s going to have rather dire consequences. So we often go, all right, my coach told me, my boss told me, whatever, I’m going to go do this major thing. And they jump into the open ocean, they don’t succeed, and they come back and go, see, that’s not the formula for success. I told you, I have to be me. But if you do it in really tiny steps, you start to gather data, you start to see the world doesn’t come to an end. You start that vice, hold that that fear has on you, starts to relax a little bit. And once you’re released from that, you can make choices, deliberate choices, to keep moving you in small incremental steps forward.

Sabina Nawaz [00:25:56]:
An example of this is, is somebody who had received feedback that they never positively acknowledged anybody’s contribution. They always just critiqued. And even though the team was doing great, they were feeling bruised and this person was like, but why don’t they understand this is who I am, this is to get them better. And I said, yeah, and sometimes getting them better is giving them feedback on what they’re doing well, so that they can keep doing that more consciously, more often. Yeah, that’s not me. I don’t do it. All those usual phrases that we just talked about. Dave, Once they started experimenting, we saw a different picture.

Sabina Nawaz [00:26:42]:
But the experiment, when I say it has to be tiny, was really, really tiny. So one time a week they had to find one small thing and thank somebody for it. Thank you for pointing out that typo before I sent the email to the CEO. That small. So it’s not, oh, I’m worried they’re going to get a swollen head or whatever. I’m worried they’ll think I’m fake. Yeah, just make it really small so it’s not fake and it’s experimental. Of course, that tiny habit then over time, consistently applied becomes a massive shift.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:22]:
You have some wonderful invitations to do what you call identify your integrity denominators and tell me what you mean by that. First of all, before we explore a.

Sabina Nawaz [00:27:36]:
Few of them, the things that are non negotiable, the Things that are really, really important for you that you’re not going to budge on no matter what.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:44]:
And so one of the the questions you invite us to ask ourselves is what roles do you play in your life and how do you show up in each one? And I think that gets back to what we were talking about earlier. You asking me, okay, your role is hosting a podcast and working with clients and being a parent. I do show up differently in those. And most everyone does show up differently in the roles that we have. One of the other questions is what is consistent about how you show up in each and what’s different? What’s helpful to play that out as far as looking both for the consistency and the difference in all those different roles?

Sabina Nawaz [00:28:22]:
When you find that similarities, it’s really helpful. It’s reassuring. It’s grounding. Yes, that’s me. That part shows up no matter what. And then the differences give you space for creativity, give you space to. Don’t we say, meet your audience where they are? Don’t we say, tailor your presentation to your audience? It shows you ways in which you can spread your wings and have a bigger wingspan.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:50]:
And then identifying the underlying values that inform those behaviors in the roles that you play. Identifying that really helps to illuminate then, like, all right, what is important to me and also, where can I shift and experiment a bit?

Sabina Nawaz [00:29:04]:
Exactly. And it helps you be more strategic. So now you’re acting in accordance with your values and what you really want to effect and bring about, rather than just reacting.

Dave Stachowiak [00:29:16]:
There is so many places in this book that I thought we’d zero in on our conversation, Sabina. I mean, every single chapter has been so helpful to me and just thinking about how I support folks. So I hope folks will go get the book and go way beyond just our conversation thinking about authenticity and integrity. Because there’s so much that’s helpful, especially if you’re at an inflection point and taking on a new season of leadership. Thank you for all the work that you’ve done to surface this. And I am curious. As you have put the book together, you’ve been sharing it with people, you’re having conversations and thinking about this. I’m wondering what, if anything, you’ve changed your mind on.

Sabina Nawaz [00:30:04]:
Well, thank you, Dave. I’m so glad that the book has resonated for you and offered you some practical next steps. There are two things. Well, there’s so many things I’ve changed my mind on, and it goes right back to the authenticity piece as well. One is in how I coach people. I used to think I have to do all the work or a lot of the work to convince them of things. And I have become way more of a minimalist and changed my mind in saying they need to do more work than me so they can actually make this authentic change that’s real for them, that’s going to stick over time. My job is to be radically present.

Sabina Nawaz [00:30:49]:
Now, don’t get me wrong, I always have a strong opinion about just about everything. So I’m not going to let my client walk out the door with spinach stuck between their teeth. But by being radically present and trusting that I can be of service in the moment, I let go of all that noise and all that busyness and allow them hold their feet to the fire and allow them to do the hard work of self discovery and a sense of agency and empowerment and confidence when they leave every single conversation. So from a work perspective, it’s been about moving more towards a minimalistic approach that has made it so much more impactful and the work sustainable for my clients. There is a personal story that I have to share because it is a very recent one that I’ve changed my mind. About three weeks ago, I ran my very first marathon.

Dave Stachowiak [00:31:42]:
Oh, congratulations.

Sabina Nawaz [00:31:44]:
Thank you so much. Now, growing up, I was so not athletic. I always admired one of my best friends who was incredibly athletic and particularly around running. Then once I started working, I fantasized about running for 20 years. Dave. For 20 years I would put off that, going to the gym for a half hour every day and never got there, had kids, got quote unquote busy, so chose not to work out as vigorously either. Then I adopted microhabits. That is, I couldn’t even run a mile.

Sabina Nawaz [00:32:22]:
And so I would increment my running by 0.1 mile. Not every day, but over the course of a week or two weeks. And three years later, here I am having run my first marathon and I’ve changed my mind about my own identity. I can now think of. I consider myself an athlete. It’s taken me decades to get there and I would never have guessed. Speaking of authenticity, I would never, ever have guessed that I could authentically honestly say that I was an athlete. But now I can.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:01]:
Sabina Nawaz is the author of You’re the Boss: Become the Manager your Want to Be (and Others Need). Sabina, thank you so much for sharing your work with us.

Sabina Nawaz [00:33:10]:
Thank you, Dave. This was an incredibly interesting conversation. I appreciate your archaeologist mindset to dig into and discover the nuances behind this very loaded term. Authenticity.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:24]:
And thank you for sharing so much of your wisdom. I’m so grateful for it. If this conversation was helpful for you three related episodes, I’d recommend one of them is episode four, 507, how to change your behavior. BJ Fogg was my guest on that episode, and if I could sum up his message to us in that conversation in two words, it would be this. Start small. Rather than taking on something big, trying to make things too complex, start small. A few minutes a day, beginning a new behavior, creating momentum, building confidence, and testing things out. We hear that echoed again and again in conversations with experts about the importance of starting small.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:08]:
BJ Fogg at the forefront of that research episode episode 507 a great place for you to begin. Also recommended episode 617 how to start a Big Leadership Role Carol Kauffman, one of the top executive coaches, walked us through step by step. Some of the big things to think about when you’re starting a new role, especially a big new role. If that’s you right now, episode 617 is a great starting point. She’s got a roadmap to follow on not only the tactics, but the mindset to begin strong. And then finally, I’d recommend episode 696, the Habits that Hold Leaders Back. Marshall Goldsmith was my guest on that episode and we talked about his iconic book What Got yout Here Won’t get yout There. And one of the habits he talks about that gets leaders in trouble is an excessive need to be me.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:56]:
It echoes this conversation today with Sabina of thinking about authenticity in a different way. Episode 696 A great compliment to this conversation. All of those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website and I’m inviting you today to set up your free free membership at coachingforleaders.com it’s going to give you the ability to search all of our past episodes since 2011 by topic so you can find exactly what you’re looking for right now. Of course, you can find all the episodes for free on any of the podcast apps, but you can’t always search by topic in an easy way on most of the apps. So we’ve made it as easy as possible for you to be able to find that on the website through your free membership. And there’s a ton of other benefits inside of the free membership. One of those benefits is my book and interview notes. Every time I interview a guest, as I did today with Sabina, I have recorded my notes that I use during the interview.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:53]:
I’ve posted those sometimes it’s things we didn’t get to in the conversation. And also included in that are usually a number of highlights, direct quotes from the book, a paragraph or 2 or 3 or 4 depending on the conversation that I think are most relevant that will be helpful for you to reference for your ongoing development. All of that is part of the free membership and so when you log in you can just go over to book and interview notes. You will see all of those listed for the last, oh gosh, I think six or seven years now. I’ve been doing that maybe eight years now of all the books, highlights, interviews, all part of the free membership. Coaching coachingforleaders.com is where to go to set all that up and you’ll have access to that plus a lot more. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest.

Dave Stachowiak [00:36:45]:
Next Monday I’m glad to welcome Roger Kneebone to the show. We are going to be talking about how to pass on your expertise to others. Join me for that conversation with Roger and see you back on Monday.