678: The Power of Unlearning Silence, with Elaine Lin Hering

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Those who struggle to speak up have been told, just be more confident, or say this to get started. As we discuss in this episode, there’s a larger context at play and great power for both leaders and the people they lead in unlearning silence. This is Coaching for Leaders, episode 678.Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:31]:
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. We all know the importance of speaking up, and yet it is a challenge for many of us both to speak up, but also for those of us who wanna support those in speaking up better in our organizations and, of course, from a leadership lens, we all have a responsibility to support systems and structures in our organizations to help others to speak up well. Today, I’m so glad to welcome a guest that’s gonna help us to do that better. Elaine Lin Hering is a facilitator, speaker, and writer who helps people build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:27]:
She’s a former managing partner of Triad Consulting Group and lecturer on law at Harvard Law School, specializing in dispute resolution, mediation, and negotiation. She is the author of Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Your Talent, and Live More Fully. Elaine, what a pleasure to have you here.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:01:47]:
Thanks so much for having me, Dave.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:49]:
You share a story in the book, which just grabbed my attention. And maybe, Elaine, it’s because it could have been my story years ago too. And it’s about a taxi ride that you took years ago. And I’m wondering if you could share that story with us?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:02:06]:
Absolutely. I had just landed in Seattle, Washington on a work trip, you know, so I’ve gone through multiple airports that do not have the freshest air, let’s say. And I jump in a cab to get to the hotel, and having been through airport filtered air, I just wanted some fresh air. I click the button to try to open the window and nothing happens. And I look at the GPS for the driver and I’m thinking, you know, it’s just 20 more minutes. I can put up with it. We go another couple minutes.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:02:46]:
I’m like, Oh, no. It’s really stuffy in here. And that air freshener that’s dangling from the rearview mirror is not doing anything for this cab. And I go through this minutes long debate of, do I ask the driver to open the window, but I don’t wanna be a bother, it’s not that big a deal. I can tough it out. Is the driver gonna get mad at me? You know, we’re in a busy intersection, I’m probably not going to end up in a ditch if I ask and he gets mad at me. And then I talk myself into it, I’m a paying customer, I should be able to have conditions that are comfortable for me for this ride. And so finally, muster up that energy and say, Sir, would you open the window? And probably threw a please in there just to be extra kind. And he didn’t even say anything back.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:03:40]:
He just pressed the button, the window opened. And Pacific Northwest area is glorious, but this was particularly glorious. And that moment taught me that if I say something, it could actually make a difference. And that internal debate of, should I say something? Should I not say something? What’s going to happen to me? Is all too common when we’re thinking about speaking up.

Dave Stachowiak [00:04:06]:
I so appreciate you sharing that story because I think there’s 2 kinds of people who may be hearing what you’ve just said. One of them listens to that story and things, oh my gosh, that is me. I’ve struggled with that. I’ve been there in a situation like that where something maybe didn’t seem like a big deal, but it was a big deal for me. And the other kind of person that I think may have just heard that story hears it and thinks, well, what’s the big deal? Why is that a challenge? And I think it’s really helpful for all of us to recognize that, like, yeah there’s some of us that that really is a big deal for and that almost certainly there’s someone in our organizations that something like that is a struggle. And it may not seem like a big deal to us, but is a big deal to that person.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:05:00]:
Mhmm. Absolutely. And that if we are in that second group, second type of person where it’s not a big deal, wouldn’t think twice. We fundamentally underestimate, particularly when we’re in leadership positions, how hard it is for someone in that first group to actually say something. Well intentioned leaders so often say, Just speak up. I’m here. My door is always open. Tell me what you really think.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:05:29]:
And we fundamentally underestimate how someone differently situated, particularly if they are lower in the organizational hierarchy or newer to the organization or fill in the blank for any number of reasons that we can get into, how hard it is for them to ask someone to open the window.

Dave Stachowiak [00:05:48]:
Yeah. Indeed. One of the things that I really appreciate in the book is just the roadmaps, the gentle roadmaps you provide for how to do this a little bit better, not only for ourselves, if that’s us, but also to support others. And you referenced the phrase from Simon Sinek as a starting point of “start with why.” What’s important about that in thinking about bringing voice into a situation and unlearning silence?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:06:17]:
So often in talking about speaking up or unlearning silence and maybe we should start there which is so often in terms of speaking up, the advice is just speak up. And I’ve given that advice, I’ve received that advice, and found it wholly unsatisfying because there’s the deeper question of, well, why don’t we speak up? What have we learned that either prohibits or inhibits us from speaking up? And to me, the what is silence. What have we learned? In what ways have we been rewarded in the past for staying silent? How has it served us well in our careers? And now hitting a point where it might not be serving us as well as we’d hope. So to even get to speaking up, we need to do some excavation of our relationship with silence. And that to me is also why we start with why when we’re speaking up. Because speaking up is not inherently comfortable if it is not something you are used to, if it is not something you’ve been rewarded for, if it is not something that has been normed for you. So starting with ‘why’ is really saying, what is more important to me? What is my bigger ‘why’ as to why I would take the risk and make myself go through the discomfort in order to be heard. Is that I want to make it better for the people who come after me? Is it I’m not okay with pay inequity? Is it I wanna be healthier? Fill in the blank.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:07:51]:
We have to- and this is all the behavioral change research that others have done- you have to have a bigger why. Otherwise, in the face of defensiveness, pushback discomfort, we inherently don’t want to be uncomfortable. But is there a reason why it is worth it to be uncomfortable in order to achieve a bigger why?

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:12]:
You write, in order to change, you need something that matters more to you than the old behavior. Mhmm. It’s such a powerful statement, and you mentioned salary equity a bit ago and I think of the both of some of the research but also some of the anecdotal stories I’ve heard, particularly from women over the years who have struggled with salary negotiation. Knowing that they are gonna often struggle with that in the moment and what they’ve heard and has been helpful is like thinking about that bigger why much like you just said of, I’m not just going into this for me. I’m going into this often on behalf of my family, on behalf of my children, on behalf of an aging parent, and thinking about it through that lens of that that matters more to me than my own preference or my default behavior and how helpful that often is. Like, what do you hear from people getting past that that inertia of being able to say what’s important?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:09:23]:
Absolutely. I think this is actually a really good microcosm of the premise of the book, which is in what ways might I, as someone who maybe hasn’t pushed on salary negotiations, what might I need to unlearn about my silence? How might I push through to have a bigger why to choose to have the conversation? The example of salary negotiations and pay equity or inequity is really fascinating Because the latest research actually shows that despite Linda Babcock and others’ research around women don’t ask, and therefore the prescription is women need to ask, well, in the last decade, women are more likely to ask, but less likely to get a yes, and more likely to be penalized. Which to me is why the fix isn’t to say women just speak up more, even though we can and we will. It is also to say, in what ways do we as leaders silence women? If the cost of speaking up is disproportionately larger for women, then it doesn’t make sense for us to hit a wall, sort of throw our careers away for this purpose. It also takes us to, in what ways is silence baked into our policies and our practices? So Sirisha Lazi and others have done great work on pay equity, including in what ways is it baked into our policies and our practices. And if we take it from a policy perspective, then the cost is not focused just on that one interaction with that one individual. So yes, having a larger why helps, and it is part of the bigger picture of these levers that we can push for ourselves, for ourselves as leaders, and also looking at the systemic aspects.

Dave Stachowiak [00:11:12]:
Thinking about that recent research and looking at this from a systemic leadership standpoint, if there was one thing, maybe 2, that a leader in organization, someone who has influence in policy might consider as a starting point for that, what would be the nudge you would give someone?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:11:31]:
I only get 2? That is me negotiating with you in the moment, but let’s start with 2. One is as a leader, can you educate yourself? Can you educate yourself period? Meaning I’ve had so many conversations where well intentioned leaders say to me, Elaine, tell me what it’s like to be an Asian American and Asian American woman in corporate America. And I’m like, I understand. I think I understand where that question’s coming from. I appreciate the curiosity. And for you to ask me to do the emotional labor, to educate you when there’s now this thing called Google and you could Google it.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:12:17]:
And there are tremendous resources out there describing the Asian American experience for women in corporate America or fill in any different identity in there. There’s so much written, there are so many interviews, so many podcasts to ask your colleague who carries that subordinated identity, meaning a minoritized, not part of the majority experience in your context, to do the work of educating you, to me, is unfair. Right. Take responsibility for your own education so that you can be a better leader when we’re talking about speaking up, when we’re talking about unlearning silence, it’s not just a woman’s issue. It’s not an Asian American issue, even though it disproportionately impacts people who carry those identities. Unlearning silence is a leadership issue. Do you know what’s actually going on on your teams? Are you getting accurate information and data so that you can make sound decisions? Are you helping the people that you lead, so they can thrive and unleashing their talent? All of that is the responsibility of a leader. So I would start with leaders.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:13:31]:
Can you take it upon yourself to learn rather than asking the people you lead to teach you.

Dave Stachowiak [00:13:39]:
Such a great invitation. One of the other invitations in the book is to connect the dots. What do you mean by connecting the dots?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:13:50]:
So often we assume that other people think like us, that we all have access to the same information. Chris Ardois would call it the ladder of inference where we’re selecting pieces of data and making meaning out of it and drawing our conclusions. Connecting the dots acknowledges that we aren’t equally situated, particularly in a global working environment. But even if you’re in sales and I’m in engineering, we have access to different information and we think about things differently. So connecting the dots acknowledges that we don’t all have access to the same information. We’re not going to metabolize it or interpret it in the same way. And it certainly doesn’t get us to the same conclusions. So rather than fighting each other at the conclusion level or not even talking with each other, one of the things I can do is share what things look like from where I sit.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:14:49]:
And when I’m coaching people to speak up, that phrase from where I sit is such a good entryway into the conversation. Because from where I sit acknowledges that my view is legitimate and limited, as is your view, which is legitimate and limited. So often in terms of speaking up, it feels like we have to have it all figured out. We need to be omnipotent. And the reality is none of us are. So connecting the dots, it’s saying, From where I sit, that deadline doesn’t make sense. Or, from where I sit, we don’t have adequate resources to launch that feature, to pull off that fundraiser? How does it look different from where you sit? But let me share what I can see and connect those dots for you, so we can see where we might be missing one another and also where we might learn from one another.

Dave Stachowiak [00:15:44]:
I love those two phrases from where I sit. What a nice way to enter into that and to begin that because that’s often so much the challenge is the beginning part. Right? Mhmm. But then, I also love the question that you just asked. How does it look different from where you sit? And what a great question for someone who has position power or influence in some other way to be able to ask of someone else to open the door for them to connect the dots. Right?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:16:18]:
Exactly. To acknowledge things are going to look different from your perspective. And that’s a good thing because what we need is the combination of all of our inputs rather than just my vantage point from where I sit. Right? As a leader, you so things, you the numbers aren’t matching up, we need to know that from our people so we can troubleshoot and course correct earlier on, rather than the people that we lead thinking, Well, I just have to tell Dave what he wants to hear. And things always have to be okay. And we don’t hear about it, can’t do anything about it until it’s too late or it’s gotten worse.

Dave Stachowiak [00:17:08]:
I’m thinking about this in having supported others on this and my own journey of getting better at this and what you’ve shared in the book. And this is it’s one of those things that strikes me as, like, once you have done it a bit, it doesn’t seem hard and maybe I don’t know if obvious is the right word, but it seems like, oh, of course, I would do that. But I do think it’s really, really hard if you haven’t done much of it in the past or just assume though. Okay. People would know. They would connect the dots. And when you are supporting someone, either someone who’s working on themselves or a leader of helping people to do this, have you found something that helps someone to just put those dots together and and to start thinking about that visually or to to put the pieces together? Because I’m not sure I would have that perfect answer for them. Okay.

Dave Stachowiak [00:18:08]:
Exactly how to begin. I’m just curious if you’ve come across that.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:18:11]:
It’s a good question. Chris Archer’s ladder of inference has been particularly helpful in terms of data reasoning and conclusion. But to me, the most powerful piece is actually just the awareness, right? Our ability to move through the world- and this is adaptation and it makes sense- we rely on reactive thinking or fast thinking so often because we can’t function in our fast paced world if everything is reflective thinking, slow thinking. But in being caught up in the hamster wheel of fast thinking, of reactive thinking, we forget that we even have a choice. We forget that we have a choice that we could parse out our reasoning, our data to be skillful in that way. So to me, the pause and the awareness of, oh, right, if we think about it, everybody thinks about things differently so it makes sense that we would see it differently and it depersonalizes any conflict in terms of we see things differently. That’s not a bad thing. That just makes sense because of who you are, where you sit, the job you do, and therefore we need to put the pieces together.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:19:23]:
So whether it is a ladder, whether it is puzzle pieces, the mechanism that has been most powerful is even that awareness because the trap is forgetting that we have a choice to break the cycle of how we operate. And so often we operate on autopilot without that intentionality. And it also means that we don’t end up showing up as the leaders that we want to be.

Dave Stachowiak [00:19:50]:
You invite us also to make the ask clear whatever we’re asking and you write “we might hope that after connecting the dots, people would be able to follow the through line and know what to do differently going forward. But experience has shown me that leaving the ask to chance is a recipe for further miscommunication and frrustration.” Tell me about that phrase “leaving the ask to chance.”

Elaine Lin Hering [00:20:13]:
This shows up so much in personal relationships as well, so I will just note that. We have well intentioned friends and family members who genuinely love us, and maybe they show and demonstrate that love by bringing us food. Maybe they demonstrate that love by not texting us and being quiet. And I imagine that we all have felt that moment where it’s like, Oh, that’s not how I want you to show up. Gottman would say it’s a different love language. Right? But if I have an inkling of what would best serve me in the moment, meaning you and I are talking and I call you and I realize I just need to vent today. I’m not even at a place of problem solving. It serves you. It serves the relationship better. If I am explicit with you of the way that you can best support me right now is just to hear me out. Go hard on empathy. Let me vent. Advice not welcome yet. Maybe I’ll come to you tomorrow. Maybe I’ll come to you by the end of the venting, but right now, I just need to vent versus that mismatch where people offer really well intentioned advice, and the person can’t hear it because they just need to vent in the moment. And then the advice giver feels like, Well, that’s useless. They’re not even going to listen to me.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:21:44]:
Why am I offering the advice? And really trying to center our own needs, which takes self awareness. Let’s be honest, sometimes we don’t know what we need until it’s been violated, until the other person does the wrong thing. But that example of venting versus let’s problem solve right now is such a clear one to me in our workplaces. Because otherwise, we leave with these stories of each other of, Oh, Dave’s not trustworthy. Dave just is a problem solver. Dave doesn’t get the emotional piece when you’re like, no, that’s what I would want in the moment, so isn’t that what you want? And because, again, we’re different human beings, turns out we don’t always want the same thing and don’t feel support in the same ways as the very person next to us.

Dave Stachowiak [00:22:34]:
What a great way to think about it. And as you were saying that I was thinking about from a a leadership standpoint of opening the door for that too we had Lauren Wesley Wilson on the show not long ago and she’s the title of her book is What Do You Need? And I think it’s it’s one of those questions that on its face kinda seems a bit blunt, but she’s really made the invitation to what it it’s a really helpful question to ask because it actually does get to the make the ask clear that you’re inviting us to if, like, if I’m in a position of power influence and I ask, what do you need? That in opens the door to really make that much more clear.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:23:18]:
Mhmm. Including the response of, you know what? I don’t actually know what I need yet. Which then is a, oh, would you like me or would it be helpful for me to be a thought partner to you in figuring that out? But at least we have a better idea of what phase of the conversation we’re in, rather than thinking, No, you know what you need, but you’re not disclosing to me. And we’re in this trap and this trickery that is really damaging to our relationships and level of trust.

Dave Stachowiak [00:23:46]:
And it’s interesting how much so many of us do struggle with just making an ask clear telling people how to help us. I was thinking early in my career 20-25 years ago someone I was in a career transition and someone gave me the really good advice of tell people how to help you. Mhmm. Because if you don’t, they like, people there’s lots of people who love you and care about you and want to support you. But if you don’t tell them how to help you, they’re not gonna know what to do. And I took that to heart at the time, and I sent one email. And the email I sent was to the group of, like, 20, 25 people at the time I knew best in the world professionally, personally. And I sent an email and said, here’s what I’m in the middle of.

Dave Stachowiak [00:24:37]:
I’m in the middle of this transition. Here’s what I think that I need. And here’s the introductions that I think would help and one of the people who received that email was a friend of mine who was taking a Dale Carnegie course. And he read the email and he said, oh, I think I should put you in touch with this instructor that is from Dale Carnegie, and that’s what started my career at Dale Carnegie. It was taking that moment to ask for help. And I actually didn’t do that very well overall at the time. But in that one moment, I did, and it made all the difference.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:25:10]:
And I have to say that judgment of I didn’t do that all that well overall, you at least did something.

Dave Stachowiak [00:25:17]:
Right.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:25:17]:
I want to celebrate that because so often we get caught in this standard of, I’ve got to do it right. I’ve got to do it perfectly. I have to figure out the right way to do it. And the right words or useful words for you is gonna be different than what right or useful words for me are going to be. But I would even change the bar to say it’s not about the right words. It’s about doing something. Because even if you did that, you wrote that email imperfectly, it’s still even if you didn’t have the, you’re like, this is what I think I need, and 5 minutes later, 5 days later, you realize that’s not what I need, at least taking a step gets you new data.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:25:59]:
New data that then informs you, allows people to react to it, to say, Hey, I think I should make this introduction to Dale Carnegie. Is that helpful? Yes or no? And there’s so many decision nodes along the way, but we can get stuck in that moment of, I don’t see all of the pieces. I don’t see all the steps going forward and I don’t know the right way to do it so I’m going to do nothing. And inaction doesn’t move us forward. Doing an experiment, taking a step does.

Dave Stachowiak [00:26:30]:
Yeah. And sometimes even going the wrong direction because it surfaces something that then gives you insight on where you go next and which is a great lead into one of the other anchors which is your invitation to embrace resistance. And thinking about what you’ve said of like, okay, this tendency of, okay, if I could just find the perfect language or the perfect phrase that people will respond in a positive way. And, yeah, it’s nice when that happens, and occasionally that does. Like, you say the thing right, and, oh, someone really responds exactly how you hope. But, actually, sometimes getting resistance from the other party when you do say something is really useful. Isn’t it?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:27:14]:
It’s really useful even though it doesn’t feel useful in the moment.

Dave Stachowiak [00:27:18]:
Yeah.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:27:19]:
I would argue that most of us, when we say something, we want people to be like, Oh, yes, absolutely. I’m going to change my behavior and you’re changing the world going forward, and we go along our merry way. Except it doesn’t tend to happen that way. Life doesn’t tend to happen that way. So embrace resistance is an invitation to say, number 1, resistance people’s defensiveness or wanting to wrestle with question or poke holes in it- that is normal, it is how we engaged. And sales people, they’ll tell you that any engagement, even a no, is a win because it gives you a hook to say, well, what would need to happen for it to be a yes? Or, Can you tell me what concerns you have? The research around the voice cultivation process, if we want to be really technical about it, the process of getting an idea to fruition, getting change into reality, suggests that because 80% of our work now takes place in teams, even if someone pushes back, even if you don’t get a yes, right away. Right. You don’t have your magic wand or beautiful version of people receiving your idea. That it’s still useful because once it’s said it is a seed planted in someone’s head, once there is resistance, we can figure out how to make it better.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:28:41]:
Right. We can learn something from that, a lot of times we get throw off or we get discouraged when we speak up and people don’t change right away or don’t seem to have heard us or they push back, versus what can I learn from this resistance? You know, you might take a moment to let the adrenaline and the cortisol get reabsorbed back into your body because very few of us like that resistance. But to expect it and engage it to say, Well, would need to change for this to work from your perspective? Or what are you seeing from where you sit that I might not be seeing that we would have to consider in order for this to be something that works for the team? Right. It tells you where the resistance is and in order to move forward, we’re going to have to engage and reduce that resistance. And so that mindset shift paired with the action is incredibly powerful for keeping us going and also not getting discouraged and deciding no longer to try because things didn’t magically change right away.

Dave Stachowiak [00:29:54]:
One of the things that I love about the book is the word you’ve said a couple of points in this conversation, awareness. And the first half of the book is about awareness, not only for ourselves, but for others and how we think about unlearning silence, and it’s such a helpful and useful place for folks who want to get better at this either in themselves or supporting others and I’m thinking about so much of your own awareness that you talk about in this book Elaine, and in your work and I’m curious as you put this book together and brought all the resources together and so many of the conversations and interviews you did. As you did that over the last couple of years, what’s something that you’ve changed your mind on?

Elaine Lin Hering [00:30:41]:
I wanna be clear for action oriented listeners that the second half of the book is all about action. Yes. It is. So we’re not leaving you high and dry. This is not just stare at your belly button meditatively. Awareness is necessary, and it is necessary to catalyze us to action. The thing that has changed for me is that I very much thought that this was just a me issue. I’ve been told my entire life, you need to speak up.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:31:10]:
You need to be more assertive. If you’re not getting what you want, it’s you. And certainly, my own background as an immigrant from Taiwan to the United States, the only woman, only Asian American woman, or non white woman in many, many contexts in leadership and in corporate America informed that advice to me. And that is so often how the problem statement is presented to us. But it’s not just me. So often people say silence or speaking up is a woman’s issue or it is a fill in the blank identity issue. And to see the universality of it from people saying, men saying, This is why I don’t talk with my mom. And am I ready to go there? Am I ready to tackle it? And there’s a whole question about agency and when you want to speak up.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:32:03]:
But what changed for me was thinking that it was just a me issue to seeing that it was pervasive and invasive in every family, community, organization, company. That’s what’s changed.

Dave Stachowiak [00:32:19]:
Elaine Lin Hering is the author of Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Your Talent, and Live More Fully. Elaine, thank you so much for your work.

Elaine Lin Hering [00:32:30]:
Thanks for having me.

Dave Stachowiak [00:32:37]:
If this conversation was helpful to you, a few related episodes I’d recommend. 1 of them that pairs beautifully with this conversation is episode 546, how to speak up. Connson Locke was my guest on that episode. We talked a little bit more about the awareness piece of this. Today, we talked a little more on the action oriented piece. The two conversations complement each other so well. Another leader who’s doing extraordinary work in this space that I think you should know if this conversation was helpful. Again, that’s episode 546.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:08]:
Also recommended episode 556 and imposter syndrome in your organization. Jodi-Ann Burey was my guest on that episode, and I’m thinking about her work because of one of the things Elaine said today is that speaking up, we often think about as a challenge for an individual. We don’t often think about it is what are the systemic dynamics that are at play that are preventing people from being able to say what needs to be said. It’s the same thing is in true very much for imposter syndrome. Jodi-Ann challenges us on thinking about imposter syndrome. We often think of as a challenge for a individual, but we miss the things that we are doing as leaders or as an organization that is allowing that to be pervasive. So many wonderful invitations from Jodi Ann in that conversation for us as leaders on how we begin to shift that dynamic in our organizations.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:03]:
A similar message on episode 608 around burnout. Christina Maslach was my guest on that episode, the leading researcher on burnout. We had a conversation about the mindset leaders need to address burnout. Christina used the analogy of a canary in a coal mine. Canaries, of course, were used to be indicators for something being wrong with the air quality. Now if a canary came out of the coal mine not doing well, you wouldn’t just make sure the canary felt better and then send the bird right back in without making any kind of shift to the environment. And yet, we often do that with burnout. Someone’s experiencing burnout and the advice or suggestion is to take a week off, take some time away, and then the individual goes right back into the team or organization that’s likely to continue to trigger the same thing. Christina challenges us to do better as leaders. What can we do to address the root causes of burnout and look at it broadly from the standpoint of the organization? Episode 608 for more on that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:06]:
All of those episodes, of course, you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website, and I’m inviting you to set up your free membership today if you haven’t before at coachingforleaders.com. It’s gonna give you access to the entire library of episodes that I’ve aired since 2011, searchable by topic. In addition, my own private library, I have made available inside of the free membership the full database of all of the articles that I have found over the years that I’ve shared in the weekly guides that you receive each week. I’ve cataloged all the podcast episodes that I’ve listened to that I think would be helpful to you. TED talks, videos, resources from others. If I found it online on Harvard Business Review or the Wall Street Journal or wherever, I’ve cataloged it and databased it, and I’ve made it all available to you. All of it.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:59]:
It’s all databased in there. It’s freely available as part of your free membership. It’s under Dave’s library. So if you set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com, you’ll get access to that plus tons of other resources inside of the free membership. And perhaps you are also looking for a bit more. One of the invitations I make every month is to one of the guest experts who has been on the podcast in the recent past to come and speak to our members directly. And our members get together live to have a conversation with guest experts and to ask questions of them. Rather than me asking the questions, it’s our members asking questions.

Dave Stachowiak [00:36:35]:
And most recently, we had Joan Gary with us on our monthly expert chat. Joan is an expert in nonprofit leadership. We were asking her questions about how do executive directors and CEOs of nonprofits work well with boards and how do boards work well with staff. We had a lively conversation for an hour with her of learning from her perspective, helping us all to get better at being able to be good leaders in the nonprofit space. It is one of the years of conversations that are inside of Coaching for Leaders Plus. All the recordings of the past, plus every new recording each single month coming available to you. We’ve had guest experts in the past like Michael Bunge Stanier, Kwami Christian, Amy Gallo, Jonathan Raymond, Liz Wiseman, the voices you’ve been hearing on the show for years joining us for those expert chats. If you’d like access to that, it’s one of the key benefits inside of Coaching for Leaders Plus.

Dave Stachowiak [00:37:32]:
Just go over to coachingforleaders.plus to find out more. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. Next Monday, I’m glad to welcome Jeff Wetzler to the show. He is going to be joining us to discuss how to make it easier to discuss hard things. A great follow-up to today’s topic. Join me for that conversation with Jeff next week, and I hope you have a great week. Take care.