709: Help Your Team Coach Each Other, with Keith Ferrazzi

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Whenever I’m having a conversation with someone about getting better at coaching, it’s almost always through the lens of how do I do it well? In this conversation, another perspective most of us miss. How does the team do coaching better for each other? This is Coaching for Leaders episode 709.Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning. Maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:40]:
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. A conversation we have all the time on the show is about how the leader should be doing an even more effective job of talking regularly, about giving feedback, about inspiring, about a coaching. Yes to all of that. And the missing piece that sometimes we don’t talk about as much, I sometimes don’t think about as much, is how do we ensure the team is doing that for each other? It’s not just about the leader having those conversations. It’s about the team doing that well too. Today, an invitation from one of the most prominent thought leaders on teams and helping us to do a better job at helping peers to support each other. I’m so pleased to welcome back to the show Keith Ferrazzi. He’s an entrepreneur and global thought leader in high performing teams and also chairman of Ferrazzi Greenlight and its research institute.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:35]:
He’s the author of the New York Times bestseller, Who’s Got Your Back, and bestsellers like Never Eat Alone, Leading without Authority, and Competing in the New World of Work. His newest book with Paul Hill is titled Never Lead Alone: 10 Shifts from Leadership to Teamship. Keith, pleasure to have you back.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:01:54]:
Hey, neighbor. Dave, it’s great to see you. We’re just down the street from each other. I’m in LA.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:58]:
Yeah. I know. We should have done this in person.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:02:01]:
No. Exactly.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:02]:
Someday, we will. Always a pleasure to talk to you. I read never eat alone 20 years ago right after it came out. And, boy, it helped me to change my perspective. And you’re still doing that for us. And one of the things that you’re inviting us to think about is teamship. And I’m quoting you from a paragraph in the book now.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:25]:
You write, “A good leader gives feedback. A great leader assures the team gives each other feedback. A good leader holds members of the team accountable. A great leader assures the team holds each other accountable. A good leader keeps the energy of the team strong. A great leader assures the team is responsible for each other’s energy. But more than the leader, it’s the responsibility of the team itself.” I read that. I highlighted it, and I thought it’s different than how a lot of us think about leadership, isn’t it?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:02:53]:
Dave, it’s a great observation. I feel like there’s no question in the last decades, we’ve had this primacy on leadership. And as important as leadership is, I think we’ve really under indexed on what is the role of the team in sharing leadership. And I don’t think there’s been really written a road map for what does it mean to be a great team member? What’s the social contract among a team? If I’m a leader, this book is intended to be a road map for what I can expect from my team, and more importantly, what team members can expect from each other. And that’s why I got so excited about this shift. I thought that this was a very undercurated space, and this has been something we’ve been researching and working in our coaching practice for 20 years, and I finally decided to put it out into the world almost as an open source.

Dave Stachowiak [00:03:48]:
One of the things you highlight in this book is the back channel. And you write “senior leaders who permit back channel conversation are allowing what our research shows is the most draining behavior of high performing teams and causes the greatest erosion to shareholder value.” What does the back channel look like and what about it is so destructive?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:04:13]:
Oh, gosh. I mean, I see it all the time, and I’m sure your listeners do too. When an individual on the team comes to the leader about another team member, or over a casual conversation with a team member, says things about another team member that they would never say in front of that individual. And it’s not from a perspective of hoping that that person elevates, it’s from the perspective of pure criticism. And it’s partially sometimes it’s indulgent, partially it’s cowardice, But whatever it is, it’s not helping the team refine its capabilities. And, you know, I came up with a new word that I think is critical. We’ve talked about it a little bit the last time we were together. The word is co-elevation.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:05:04]:
The team needs to be committed to a shared mission, but equally committed to pushing each other to get there, lifting each other to get there, celebrating each other to get there, and and critiquing each other to get there. That just is not a part of the social contract of most teams. The walk down the hallway after the meeting happens. Well, damn it. Why aren’t we doing that in the meeting? That’s such a waste. A corroboration of critical information that happened after the meeting that should have happened in the meeting. We see that happening all the time. So it’s time to put an end to that.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:05:40]:
I wanna I wanna create a new standard. I call it a social contract. It’s almost an ethical contract. For what does it mean to be a great team member and back channel conversations off the table.

Dave Stachowiak [00:05:53]:
We did talk about co-elevation when you were on previously, and I’ve read about that. I when I’ve talked to leaders about it, like, virtually everyone, like, says, gosh, you know, great idea. Love that. What a great thing to aim for. And yet so many organizations and teams really don’t do that in practice even if they give lip service to it. One that does is Elf Beauty, and you highlight them in the book and the commitment they have right from the top to do this and do this well. What is it that they do that’s so interesting and effective in this?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:06:28]:
Yeah. So we broke the book down into 10 critical shifts to take an average team to make it exceptional. We call it 10 critical shifts from leadership to teamship. And chapter 10 starts with a hero story as each chapter does about, in this case, Elf Beauty. Tarang, the CEO of Elf, really has a strong commitment to high impact teams. And his commitment to a high impact team redefines that social contract, and a part of it is to break down the power and the importance of peer to peer feedback. So when you’re hired at Elf, you’re told that for the next years that you’re with us, you will grow further and faster than any other place you could possibly be. The promise is that your career and your development as an individual will be on a rocket ship because you came to Elf.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:07:30]:
And by the way, what an what a powerful recruiting contract to give somebody. Right? That while you’re here, you’re gonna grow further and faster than anywhere else. But in exchange, you’re not allowed to be defensive. In exchange, you’ve gotta be richly curious. You’ve gotta be hungry for the kind of critical feedback that will help you go higher, and you have to give it constantly, and you have to get it constantly, but, by the way, out of love. Now if any of us has read the book Principles by Ray Dalio, he talks a lot about these very important elements of what one might call a challenge culture.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:08:11]:
And Elf does it, but not statically, not stoically, not negatively. They do it out of love and care and desire to make each other better. That’s what Elf is really powerful in terms of what it does differently.

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:29]:
What’s different about the mindset of the CEO and the executive team that makes that a coming from a genuine place of love versus just the static, the corporate brochure, the kind of, like, intention, but we don’t really do it.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:08:47]:
So I like your question, but can I use it to pivot your listeners a bit? Of course. We we talk too much about mindsets, And I know that, you know, like, I’m the guy coming on your show about leadership, saying we over index on leadership. And I’m about to say that we over index on mindsets. It’s a bit funny, but I really do believe that we should be indexing on teamship and practice, not mindset. There is a saying that you don’t think your way new way of acting, you act your way to new way of thinking. I feel that if we focus on mindset, we end up focusing too I feel that if we focus on mindset, we end up focusing too much on conceptual ideology that either people have or they don’t. My job as a coach is to intervene and change the dimension and direction of a team. And therefore, I don’t talk about mindsets. I only talk about practices. The question I’d like to rephrase is, what are the practices that Tarang and the team at Elf use to build the drumbeat of constant learning and development?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:09:49]:
What are the practices that allow that to be successful? Because ultimately, if I can get your listeners to adopt these practices, they will, one day after adopting these practices, realize how powerful they are, see the value from them, they’ll want more of them, and the next thing you know, their mindsets will have shifted. Everything’s focused on high return practices.

Dave Stachowiak [00:10:18]:
Lovely. I love that shift, and it actually leads me to what I was gonna ask you next, which is what they do during onboarding. Because you talk about that in the book, and I think it’s really interesting how they approach this in practice. What have you seen them do that that works so well?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:10:35]:
So I could dive right into the practice of what I call an open 360. An open 360 is a practice of peer to peer coaching. Everybody in the team goes around, and let’s say, Dave, we start with you. We could start with any volunteer. Sometimes it’s better if the if the leader volunteers, but it doesn’t matter because everyone’s gonna get a chance to do this. So we start with Dave. Everybody goes around and they start with Dave, what I most admire and respect about you is x. Then the next person says Dave, what I most admire and respect about you is y.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:11:09]:
Everybody goes around and shares what they admire and respect about you. And then you’re taking notes the entire time. And da da da da. Then everybody goes around and says Dave, because I care about you, and because your success is so important to our success, I might suggest. So the underlying implication is I care about you, and the feedback I’m about to give you is because I care. And, frankly, your success is important to us, and therefore, I might suggest. And then we each give you critical feedback, having repeated that statement. So that’s an open 360 exercise.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:11:44]:
Now what is important, though, is if you give that exercise to a team that currently hates each other, that’s a bunch of viper pits. Right? It’s probably not gonna go over that well. Or it could be used punitively, or people won’t really be forthright Right. Because they don’t have the psychological safety. So in an earlier chapter on relationships, which is I think it’s chapter 4 of the book, we talk about how do you build intimacy, empathy, and care among your team. And that has a practice, many practices, but one of them is called an energy check, where on a monthly basis, the team has re engineered, in that chapter, by the way, chapter 4, we re engineered the social contract of shifting from you, my energy, Dave, and your energy, and our ability to be resilient and mentally health and caring about our peers, all of that is shifted from being an individual’s responsibility to being a team responsibility. We learn that proactively caring about each other, proactively having each other’s back, proactively worrying about where each other’s energy is, that that love and commitment to each other from a relationship perspective is something you do proactively, and you do it intentionally. So we do a practice there that is called an energy check.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:13:11]:
Once a month, everybody shares, on a scale of 0 to 5, what has been my energy this month and what is bringing it down, both personally and professionally. So somebody would share, as I might right now, that my mom’s 91, and she’s recently experienced some health issues, which she’s been crushing it all along. But I’ve now realized the delicate nature of my mother, and it scares me. And it’s been drawing a lot of my energy down as I’m worried about getting her back into a healthy state. On a professional basis, I’ve got a new book coming out, and I’m always feeling like I’m not doing enough to market that book and and to get it out into the world, and I should be doing a lot more, and I’m it’s draining my energy because I’m feeling like I’m behind the 8 ball all the time as we creep up into the launch date. So that would be my energy check. And then, Gabe, you would give yours. So those two practices.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:14:07]:
1, a foundational practice of relationship, upon which you get empathy, connection, bonding, and then on top of that, you can start to build the the criticism side, the critical side, the coaching side. Right? Those two things go hand in hand.

Dave Stachowiak [00:14:26]:
Yeah. And one of the distinctions I’m hearing you say there is that before the team comes to a place where folks are giving that coaching to each other, like, just inviting through, through the first process of, like, talking about energy, a little bit more of self disclosure. And that way, you enter into a place where people are used to hearing that, used to discussing it, saying it out loud, and you choose what you discuss, obviously, leading a little bit more to that psychological safety that lays the groundwork for then doing something like an Open 360.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:15:01]:
Exactly. So the foundation is built on relationship, but that relationship, which breeds empathy and care among the team, has to be activated to mean not only do we care about each other, but we actually have made a commitment to have each other’s back. So that’s a different level. So you can have a team that cares about each other, but doesn’t think that their job is to lift each other up. You know what I’m saying? So those two things have to be activated, and we do that in earlier chapters. And then by the time you get to this chapter, now we’re ready to be each other’s coaches. And there’s other things, by the way. There’s a framework for feedback that we lay out in the book that is not often discussed.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:15:45]:
We think of feedback, I think, too nebulously. I think most people think of feedback, but they don’t break it down into its component parts. And I’ve broken it down into 4 component parts. Feedback and ideas, where that’s what happens when we teach people how to collaborate effectively and stress test each other’s ideas. So feedback and ideas is one level of feedback. Next level of feedback is feedback on performance, where you’re actually very unlikely, most teams are not holding each other accountable on performance. That is usually the arbitration of a leader to or a manager to hold you accountable for your performance, not your peers. So feedback on performance, peer to peer, is the next piece.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:16:33]:
The next piece is feedback on competencies and skills. Like, I’m a marketer, and do I understand how AI is impacting marketing? That’s a competency or skill feedback that people need to give each other. Upping our game from a what we know and how we do it. And then the last piece is feedback on style. People feeling shut down by their peers. People not feeling psychologically safe. People feeling that they’d like to hear more from their peers. Right? They know to people who are more withdrawn among a team.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:17:10]:
So feedback on style is the 4th type of feedback. And I do think it’s important. It’s critical, I think, in this environment to be that precise on different types of feedback.

Dave Stachowiak [00:17:21]:
What is it about knowing those different 4 types, recognizing them, maybe even deciding which one you’re zeroing in on right now that’s significant as far as how you decide what to say, what not to say, and how that plays out?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:17:38]:
Well, I think the first piece is just the recognition that we’re allowed to do it. So what we talk about in chapter 10 and what Elf talks about is that all 4 of those types of feedback are on the table for peers to give each other feedback. And if you’re coming in from a traditional organization, you’d normally would not give peers performance feedback.

Dave Stachowiak [00:18:02]:
Right.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:18:03]:
You may or may not give peers style feedback. Right? I mean, that’s just not a social contract. We’re gonna redefine that social contract for your team so that this burden is no longer only on the arbitration of the leader. The team needs to take on the responsibility of this kind of feedback. And so it’s important to break it down just so that we realize, oh, this is allowed. Performance feedback is no longer the arbitration of a leader. It’s our responsibility amongst each other. And then what’s the practice? Okay, we’re gonna give that performance feedback will come up both in the Open 360, but it’ll also come up in the stress testing exercise, and stress testing is when somebody gives a report out of where their project is, and they’re sharing with the team, here’s what I’ve achieved, here’s where I’m struggling, and here’s where I’m going.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:18:59]:
And then the team is assigned to challenge that with challenge each part of that. Well, I don’t know that what you’ve said you’ve achieved, you’ve actually achieved. I think you frankly haven’t gone as far. Your performance needs to be richer in this particular area. Or here’s what challenges I have for what you’ve shared or risks I see, and here’s ideas that I might offer and help of support. So we break down the feedback into a very specific set of assignments that every team member gives every team member. Now we’ve turned what we would have hoped would have come organically in the room, which does not normally, into an assignment. But it’s an assignment that gets to both idea challenging, and it gets to performance challenging.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:19:47]:
So these are things that we do in practice. The book really doesn’t let the team off the hook. Yeah. We first create the social contract, give them the practice, let them move on.

Dave Stachowiak [00:19:59]:
And as you said earlier, because you’re doing it as a practice, then that shifts your beliefs about it. Right?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:20:06]:
Exactly.

Dave Stachowiak [00:20:07]:
One of the beliefs I’m sure you run into and you said it a moment ago is, either the leader themselves, the executive team, the culture of the organization saying, well, it’s not the job of peers to be giving each other performance feedback. In fact, that’s not allowed, and we shouldn’t be doing that. When you run into that belief, what helps to start to get people thinking a little bit differently or at least experimenting with this just a bit?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:20:32]:
I feel like a leader can set the stage. Right? And what we try to do in the book is give 2 entry points for a team’s transformation. Of course, it’s easier if the leader walks in and says, okay, going forward, we’re gonna adopt teamship. Going forward, we’re gonna shift from feedback that’s hierarchical to feedback that’s peer to peer, and we’re gonna adopt this exercise, and let’s start practicing. Right? So the leader becomes the coach. Alternatively, if the leader is not aware or not prone, a member of the team could raise their hand and say, hey, team. I’ve been struggling with this project. Would you mind if I take some portion of next week’s agenda? And there’s this exercise that I read about.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:21:26]:
It’s called stress testing. I would love for you all to stress test my project with and for me. In order to do that, let me help set it up a bit. What I’m asking for, I’m not asking for you to take over the project. I’m asking for data and ideas and direction that me and my team could take and analyze more effectively. So I’m setting this up, but here’s what I’d like you to do. I’m going to report where I am, where I’m struggling, where I’m going, and I want you to point out challenges you see. I want you to give me ideas that you have, and I’d love for you to offer any help or support you might have.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:22:03]:
Is that an exercise that you all would be willing to engage with me on? So, here you have a teammate stepping forward, inviting themselves to be stress tested in an ecosystem that might not have done it in the past. And I think that that could be game changing because somebody else could say, wow. That exercise really seemed impactful for you. I’d like to do the next one.

Dave Stachowiak [00:22:25]:
How often as human beings, we are waiting for someone else to take the first step. And as you have said for years, Keith, leadership means you go first and leadership doesn’t just mean the person who has the title or is in charge it could be anybody on the team doing exactly what you just said of like let me start, maybe people come along, maybe they don’t, but let me start by at least opening the door to show a little bit of vulnerability and to try this out and see who comes along.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:23:00]:
Amen. I mean, that’s exactly right. You were alluding to a prior book of mine called Leading Without Authority.

Dave Stachowiak [00:23:06]:
Yeah.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:23:06]:
And I a 100% agree. We’ve gotta start shifting this victimized authoritative social contract where I’m waiting for the red carpet to be rolled out for me to be effective and efficient and progressive. We gotta step up. Each of us has to step up. And this has been a thread through every one of my books. And it started with never eat alone. The journey from never eat alone to never lead alone has a number of through threads. And one of them is the audacity to take leadership from whatever position you’re in, and to invite followership, and to create an ecosystem of team, whether or not they are actually on an org chart, your team.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:23:55]:
It’s irrelevant. Team isn’t your org chart. Team is who you need to get the job done. So once you have a vision for a change you wanna make in the world or in your company or at your organization, then you go and create your team. And your team then uses these 10 shifts as the roadmap to crush, be transformative, be successful.

Dave Stachowiak [00:24:18]:
one of the roadmaps I love that’s in this chapter is the 555 learning roadmap and I think it speaks to what you were just talking about of like being the person maybe that opens up the opportunity for some feedback. Could you share how that works and what that looks like?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:24:35]:
Yeah. I love that one. So 555 is another one of what we call an HRP, high return practice. And just to make it clear to your listeners, a high return practice, we have over 3,000 teams that we’ve engaged in our research. And as we engage with these teams, we ask high performing teams what are the practices that they use to achieve x? What are the practices they use to have a more resilient team? What are the practices they use to get more candor and transparency into the room? What are the practices they use to hold the teams hold each other accountable? So we ask these questions. We get the practices and then we go try them on in teams that don’t use these practices already. And we see how it moves the needle, both in our diagnostic surveys and also in their outcomes. So the practice of 555 is a practice of opening up peer to peer coaching again.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:25:38]:
So what happens is Dave starts by offering something that Dave’s struggling with. So it might be an HR issue. So Dave says, I’m really struggling with the performance of Jane, and I’m trying to get Jane to understand x, y, and z, but, you know, she’s been challenged with blah blah blah. Whatever it is. Dave gets 5 minutes to describe a problem. Could be anything. Then we pepper Dave with questions for 5 minutes. We’re not trying to answer his question at this point for two reasons.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:26:11]:
One, the more questions we ask, the better richness of data we get. But also, Dave can self reveal. Dave’s ability to change his mind on something comes better if he self reveals through questions as opposed to Dave just states and I just give him advice. Now, so the second 5 minutes is us asking Dave questions. 3rd piece of that 555 is the last 5 minutes. Now we all give Dave double barreled feedback. Direct advice. But the point is, Dave doesn’t have to take it.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:26:47]:
He’s just getting data that he can corroborate and figure out what he wants to do with. His only response at the end of it needs to be, Thank you. Now, if we want to take it to the next level, he could do a yes, no, maybe. Where at the end of the 5:5:5, he’s gotten all the directive feedback. Then he says, okay, folks. Let me just give you some insight. Yes. I’m gonna do these things you suggested.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:27:10]:
No, I’m not going to do these things for the following reasons, and these things I’m going to take into consideration and study a little bit more. That is nice sometimes if you want to end a 555 with a with a simple exercise that ties the bow, But it’s important to realize that when you’re giving peers feedback, you can’t expect that your feedback is direction. This is really important. All our lives when we got feedback from an authority figure, a teacher, a coach, a parent, a boss, we were expected to do it. They were giving feedback as a directive. When you open up peer to peer feedback, you have to reboot that. It’s no longer a directive. It’s only data.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:27:55]:
And by the way, it lightens this whole process when I realize, oh, I’ve always gotten directives from authority. Now, I’m getting data from people who care for me. I can handle that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:08]:
Yeah. It’s such a key distinction in this. Right? And one of the other distinctions I’m hearing in just the, the simplicity and the brilliance of that that 555 is the first 5 minutes. It’s just framing the problem. Like, so often we don’t do that. We’re like, oh, I got this issue. What do I do? Really deep detailing into it. And then one of the other key points I’m hearing you say in the second 5 minutes is, like, no one’s allowed to give advice.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:34]:
No one’s allowed to give advice disguised as a question. Like, have you thought about doing this kind of thing? Right?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:28:40]:
Right. Exactly.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:40]:
Really, it’s a place of curiosity, and I bet that requires a bit of discipline for for folks to do that well. And when you do that, is there is there someone in the group who’s separate from the first person bringing the situation who’s a bit of the facilitator or just kind of, like, helping people to get used to that if they’ve not done much of that before to get in that mindset?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:29:03]:
Well, what I’m doing first of all, the book is intended to be your coach. We write it as a team reads a chapter and begins doing the practices, and then the team reads another chapter and begins doing the practises. But I’m also giving away a short video series with the book where people can watch a 7 minute tutorial from me on the chapter. It’s just a little different mode of learning so that the team watches me give them a little coaching, reads the chapter, and starts doing the practices. Of course, you could always have an outside coach coming in, and I do expect that this book will probably spur a cottage industry of coaches teaching to this methodology, which I’m really excited about. It may not have commercial benefit to me personally, but I’m excited about really changing the zeitgeist of having executive team coaching be a really important mainstay going forward as opposed to just executive coaching, which really focuses on leaders and leadership.

Dave Stachowiak [00:30:07]:
Yeah. Indeed. Okay. Two questions for you then. 1st, how do folks get the videos if they wanna get in and really, like, get into that in detail? And, of course, there’s so much more in the book that we’re not talking about. Where should they go?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:30:19]:
Yeah. Thank you. So at keithferazzi.com, you can sign up for ordering a bulk of the books. And by ordering a bulk of the books, you know, just for your team, you can register and get the videos released to you. Yeah.

Dave Stachowiak [00:30:34]:
Nice. Great. We’ll have that all linked up in the notes and the weekly leadership guide, of course. And then the second question, one I’ve asked you before and I often ask folks is you’ve been writing for a long time. You’ve been supporting a lot of teams, Keith, on doing some incredible work over the years. As you put together this most recent book, you’ve been thinking about it and and talking with it with leaders and teams. What, if anything, have you changed your mind on in the last year or 2?

Keith Ferrazzi [00:31:00]:
Well, I’ll tell you something that I’ve indexed higher on, and I’ll tell you something that I’ve changed my mind on. One of the things I’ve indexed higher on is there’s an entire chapter in the book about celebration. I have never been much of a celebratory guy. I’m a bit of a perfectionist on myself. I’m hard on myself. I’m always driving myself. I’m driving my team. You know, it’s like okay- there’s one of the members of the that I heard and when I was interviewing for the last book, this is a guy who says, Okay, no time for victory laps.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:31:32]:
What’s next? That’s not that’s not a wise, way to run your team. Celebration is an crucial, fuel for energy and positivity in your team. So I really wanted to make sure I spent some time, and I indexed in this book on celebration, which is something I haven’t spent as much time on. I’m usually on the vulnerability, the candour, that sort of thing. So that’s a leveling up. The thing I’ve decided, it’s like I have always pushed myself so hard when a book comes out to make the lists. You know, the best selling list of this, that, and the other thing. I’ve been blessed with having a number one New York Times best selling book, etc.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:32:16]:
And this time, I just said, you know what? It’s not important anymore to me. Of course, it’d be great if it happens, but what’s important is the drumbeat of getting out there, similar to what Never Eat Alone has been for now 20 years. So I’m really hoping the journey from Never Eat Alone to Never Lead Alone is another part of my long lasting legacy.

Dave Stachowiak [00:32:36]:
Keith Ferrazzi is the author of Never Lead Alone: 10 Shifts from Leadership to Team Ship. Keith, thank you so much for all your work.

Keith Ferrazzi [00:32:45]:
Always great to talk to you, Dave. Thanks a lot for having me again.

Dave Stachowiak [00:32:47]:
My pleasure. If this conversation was helpful to you, 3 related episodes I’d also recommend episode 585 is one of them. How top leaders influence great teamwork. Scott Keller was my guest on that episode, partner at McKinsey. Him and his colleagues have done a ton of work and research looking at the best CEOs and what do they do. And one of the messages from that conversation is that the best CEOs are unequivocal on one thing. The top team is everyone’s first team putting the larger team, the organization first and not just the silo or the department that that particular leader happens to lead. It’s looking at the larger organization.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:31]:
Here are the echoes of that in this conversation as well. A wonderful perspective from Scott and a good compliment to the message today from Keith. Also recommended episode 680, becoming more coach like with Michael Bungay Stanier, Michael best selling author of the coaching habit. We had a conversation in that episode about how we can all become a bit more coach like and some of the key principles for doing that and how to approach those conversations. So many wonderful tidbits and perspective and tactics that we can use in conversations with our teams from that conversation. Again, that’s episode 680. And then also recommended episode 695, team collaboration supports growth mindset. Mary Murphy was my guest on that episode, and we talked about the importance of thinking about growth mindset versus, fixed mindset.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:20]:
And a lot of us think about those things as an either or. And you heard Keith and I talk a little bit about mindset versus behavior today. Mary invites us to really think about that much more on a spectrum, on how we think about ourselves and others. And, oh, by the way, most of us shift on that perspective a lot of the time depending on the environment we’re in, how we think about ourselves situation. So many wonderful ways to think about how to do that better, not only for yourself, but more importantly for your team. Episode 695, a great starting point for that. All of those episodes, of course, you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. And I’m inviting you today.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:57]:
If you haven’t already, go ahead and sign up for a free membership on coachingforleaders.com. When you do that on the front page at coaching for leaders.com, you’re gonna get access to the entire episode library since 2011 searchable by topics. So say you are looking for something a little bit more focused on coaching skills, you’re gonna come across that episode I mentioned earlier from Michael Bungay Stanier as well as several others I’ve had with Michael, but many other episodes over the years on coaching skills, specifically. Many other episodes on team leadership, specifically. We’re gonna be having this conversation filed under both of those as well as dozens and dozens of other topics. So you can find what’s most relevant to you right now. Go over to coachingforleaders.com, set up your free membership. It is one of many of the resources that episode library searchable by topic that’s available to you inside of the free membership.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:48]:
And if you’re looking for a bit more, I’d invite you to find out about Coaching for Leaders Plus. You can discover more by going to coachingforleaders.plus. And one of the benefits of Coaching for Leaders Plus is a weekly journal entry from me. One of the questions I am asked fairly often, at least a few times a year, whenever a major world event happens, a war, a natural disaster, something in the news, an attack, an election is, do I say something to my team about this? And if I do say something to my team about what’s going on in the world and the news, what do I actually say? How do I approach that? In a recent journal entry, I walk through what are the 2 questions I ask of myself in order to assess whether or not I’m gonna say something about what’s happening in current events with the people I’m working with or not. And then if I decide to, through those two questions to say something, how do I actually approach it and what do I recommend for leaders as well? It’s one of the recent journal entries inside of Coaching for Leaders Plus. You can get full access to that one, plus so many others just by going over to coachingforleaders.plus. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest.

Dave Stachowiak [00:37:05]:
Next Monday, I’m glad to welcome David de Kraemer, who is joining me to discuss how to become a more AI savvy leader. It’s a topic many of us are thinking about right now, and we’re gonna talk about how we can think about AI and also put into practice a little bit more effectively. Join me for that conversation with David. Have a great week, and see you back Monday.