668: How to Begin with an Executive Coach, with Scott Osman and Jacquelyn Lane

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Perhaps you’ve been considering working with a coach, but how do you start? In this episode, we discuss when to consider coaching, how it might help, and the best way to begin. This is Coaching for Leaders episode 668.Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:24]:
Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I’m your host, Dave Stachowiak. Leaders aren’t born, they’re made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. One of the emails that I get fairly regularly from our members and listeners is a question like, I’m thinking about maybe working with a coach. Where do I start? Who would you recommend? What are some things I should be thinking about as far as working with a coach? And today, a conversation about executive coaching and working with a coach. What can you expect? How do you track down the right person? What are some things you should be thinking about as you begin that process? And how do you really make it work for you? And I am so glad to welcome 2 guests today who both are in a role that I think will really help us with some wonderful perspective on how to engage a coach and how to make that a great relationship for both of you.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:27]:
I’m pleased to welcome Scott Osman and Jacqueline Lane. Scott is the founder of and CEO of the 100 Coaches Agency and co-designer with Jacqueline of their proprietary curation process and the company’s relationship first philosophy. In his role as CEO, he establishes the vision for the company, leads partnerships and business development, and serves as a leading light of the 100 coaches community, which he cofounded with Marshall Goldsmith in 2016.Jacqueline Lane is the president of the 100 Coaches Agency. She has been with the agency since its founding and is a critical pillar of the 100 coaches community. She comes to the world of executive coaching through her previous roles in the energy industry and lifelong commitment to improving the lives of all people by elevating the quality of leadership. They, along with Marshall Goldsmith, are the authors of Becoming Coachable: Unleashing the Power of Executive Coaching to Transform Your Leadership and Life. Scott, Jacqueline, welcome.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:27]:
What a pleasure to have you on.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:02:29]:
Thank you. We’re so excited to be here.

Scott Osman [00:02:31]:
So great to be here with you.

Dave Stachowiak [00:02:32]:
Well, this is a question, as I mentioned, I get from folks who reach out. And before we get into some of the, like, logistics and how to think about this, I’m thinking about this through the lens of someone who’s maybe thought about working with a coach. They’ve identified some things they’d like to get better at. What would be an indicator or 2 or three maybe that someone, as a leader might, benefit from the support of a coach?

Scott Osman [00:03:01]:
aWell, you know, honest so I got into coaching a little bit late. I met March about 8 years ago, and I didn’t know anything about coaching. It was really not on my radar. And since then, of course, I’ve become very deep in that whole world, but it wasn’t until about 2 years ago that I even thought I needed a coach. Until then, I had been meeting coaches and thinking about coaching everything else, and then I met a great coach, and I realized that my even my thinking I didn’t need a coach was constraining the potential of what I could do and create. And when I found the right coach, the possibilities just became incredibly expansive. And I mentioned that because now that I’m deep in the world of coaching, I see the work that our coaches do. And, of course, our coaches are among the best coaches in the world at the 100 coaches agency.

Scott Osman [00:03:51]:
My firm belief is everybody benefits from a coach. Every leader benefits from a coach. But in particular, leaders who create value at moments of inflection really need a coach. Right? If you’re a leader and you’re just going along and you’re not trying to grow the company and things are not changing around you, probably can do okay without a coach. But if you’re the kind of leader who is at a point, at a juncture in the career or in the arc of the company where things are changing, then a coach is invaluable. I’m sure we’ll talk about why that’s the case in our conversation.

Dave Stachowiak [00:04:26]:
Mhmm. I’ve noticed when people have reached out to me about coaching, there’s often a process of sort of articulating what it is that they really wanna gain from a coach, and that’s often one of the questions that I’ll ask first is, well, if you did engage a coach, what would that do for you? And I find that not everyone, but a lot of folks have a hard time kind of narrowing down what do they really want to come out of that relationship. And I’m wondering if you have a suggestion or two for us of thinking about, like, if I’m at that inflection point, maybe I’d benefit from a coach. What’s helpful to do for clarifying for yourself what you wanna get out of it, maybe even before you start that conversation?

Jacquelyn Lane [00:05:09]:
Yeah. It’s a great question, and it requires a certain amount of self reflection and understanding the situation you find yourself in, the situation your company is in. So we always recommend that people do some of that thinking in advance. Of course, sometimes, you you might not even have clarity about what it is that you’re looking do or where you’re wanting to go. And for a number of people then, just starting that process of having conversations with coaches begins the process of opening up your mind and your eyes to seeing some of the possibilities that might exist. So we always recommend if you’re getting stuck and and you’re not making progress on your own, that might be a good time to bring in another thinking partner and collaborator just to bounce ideas off of.

Scott Osman [00:05:53]:
Yeah. I’d also add to that. There’s kind of 2 general buckets of what people look for in coaching. Number 1, there’s an issue that they’re having trouble navigating, and they want support getting through that, whether it’s behavioral or relationships or even maybe strategic. So they’ve come through a bit of a rough patch. They understand that they’re having some issues. The other one is people who recognize that they’re not rowing as fast as they want to, or and this is super common, that they recognize that they have blind spots. And by the nature of blind spots, they have no idea what they are.

Scott Osman [00:06:29]:
And they see their way to recognizing that a coach can help them find the obstacles that are hidden from their own view. And those are great opportunities for coaching.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:06:39]:
Yeah. Another thing I would add is that we don’t actually view coaching as a remedial exercise.

Scott Osman [00:06:44]:
Mhmm.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:06:45]:
I think there has maybe historically been a perception that coaching is something you seek out when you are in trouble or something is not going well. But we would actually argue that one of the best times to seek out coaching is when things are going well, and you realize that they could be even better. You know, why not build on success with with continued growth and success?

Dave Stachowiak [00:06:39]:
Indeed. I’m so glad you said that, Jacqueline, because my perception is that that has really changed in the last 10 or 15 years. Like you said, early on when coaching first started to become a thing, there was a little bit more of that, like, okay. If you have a coach, like, you don’t wanna talk about it too much. Right? And now it’s almost there’s still some of that, but it’s almost the opposite. It’s what you and Scott have just said. It’s it’s really looking at it more of a yes, there may be some things I’m working on, but it’s more of a a strategic opportunity.

Dave Stachowiak [00:07:36]:
It’s it’s the kind of thing that, yeah, lots of leaders are doing for their professional development.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:07:35]:
Exactly. And, our friend, collaborator, and coauthor, Marshall Goldsmith, has really paved the way, I think, in helping people recognize that having a coach is a badge of honor. I know most of the people that work with Marshall are very proud to claim him as their coach and talk about it in things like books and articles and podcasts. That’s pretty exciting.

Scott Osman [00:08:02]:
It’s a funny thing. Coaching someone who is having difficulty and helping them through the difficulty so that they can be a solid performer has one return on investment, but coaching someone who’s already a high performer and making them a higher performer has an even more extraordinary return on that investment.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:08:20]:
Mhmm.

Scott Osman [00:08:19]:
And we do like focusing on helping extraordinary leaders reach their fullest potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:08:26]:
Thinking about potential, you know, who you work with really does make a difference. Right? The perfect coach for me might not be the right fit for you, Scott, and vice versa. Right? I know one of the big challenges and I would say even stopping points having talked with some folks is like, okay. I sort of know I could benefit from this. I get it. I’m bought into the idea of doing this, but I’m like, I’m not even sure where to start. Where do I go? How do I reach out? And I’m curious what you would suggest as someone who’s thinking about this who doesn’t necessarily have a coach in their network or maybe if they do, like, I’m not sure if that’s the right person.

Dave Stachowiak [00:09:04]:
What would be the methodology to go about as far as thinking about, like, how do I even find someone? And what’s the kind of background you may wanna be thinking of or at least conscious of of who you might engage as a coach?

Scott Osman [00:09:02]:
Yeah. Such a great question, and we get that question all the time. In fact, in some ways, the 100 Coaches Agency was founded to answer that question. Originally, you know, we had created the 100 Coaches Community, and people were calling looking for coaches. I was just sort of casually making recommendations and then realized that there’s a structured process that we innovated, which we call curation that we do, but I think that anybody can mimic it on their own. And it starts with discovery, which is understanding in our case, we listen to the person, understand what they’re looking for. So it starts with just a little bit of reflection about what you’re looking for in a coach and understanding what that is. And then you wanna find 3 different coaches, each of whom will address the issues that you’re thinking about, but possibly from a different point of view and different life experience.

Scott Osman [00:10:09]:
So, for example, if your issue is, say, some behavioral issue, you might wanna have a coach who’s got a background in therapy. You may want another coach who’s got a background in having executive experience, and a 3rd coach that is just as, you know, a traditional coach. And those 3 different approaches to addressing your problem will give you insights into how you wanna be coached. I think from our perspective, we always wanna work with coaches that have a meaningful amount of experience. In our case, it’s often 5 to 10 years. But depending on your budget, it could be somewhat less. But but be with a coach that has worked with people like you in the past. And I think if you create that kind of diversity and then do a chemistry call with each of the 3, invest the time in meeting at least 3 people.

Scott Osman [00:10:56]:
Again, we think that the return of investment just in having those 3 calls is enormous because you’re gonna learn more about coaching and about yourself and get a little more of a nuanced sense of what coaching can do for you by the end of the calls. And then make your choice and should be good to go.

Dave Stachowiak [00:11:13]:
And I think, like, how interesting I hadn’t really thought about it from the standpoint of just having those 3 calls helps you to really actually get movement already and thinking about how to approach it. And as you said, it’s not that you’re hiring 3 people, but you’re looking at 3 different perspectives where this perspective seems like the right one for me right now. And I’m curious, Scott, thinking about that as as you show up for a chemistry call like that and have an initial conversation, What if anything, when you see people like a leader come to that conversation who gets a lot out of that, who really does come away with that perspective whether they hire the coach or not, what, if anything, do they do to prepare for that conversation or do in that conversation that really helps them to get there?

Jacquelyn Lane [00:12:01]:
Yeah. That’s such an important question. And I think the most important thing that an executive can bring to that conversation is openness. You know, in part of this process, since we’re recommending it, is to really have a variety of different backgrounds and experiences and expertises. And all of that is going to to inform you more about yourself. And I think just the openness to hear what they have to say, to believe that there are some alternative solutions out there, and just to get another person’s thinking is a really powerful way to explore. So, of course, if you have done some of that prework as we had just have mentioned earlier, like thinking about what it is that you’re looking to accomplish and do, of course, bring that up with the coach. But, really, the coach is also trying to figure out if it’s the right fit for them.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:12:50]:
And so the more honest and frank you can be about what it is that you need or looking for, what would be the metrics of success for you, what are some of your own preferences, what’s gonna feel like the right, cadence of speaking or the type of of involvement you want. Any clarity that you can provide is really useful for that coach to make sure that you are getting the experience that you’re looking for, and it’s also gonna be the right fit for them too. It’s really about partnership. None of us do this alone.

Scott Osman [00:13:18]:
Yeah. You might also think about remember, I think, the first time I met Marshall, and he he said, you know, what do you wanna work on? Marshall never has never coached me. And I and I probably listed 5 things, and he he, like, looked at me and goes, pick 1. Because changing one thing is really hard. And I think if you come to that 1st meeting with the one thing that is really the most important thing for you to work on and see how the coach works with you on that in that sort of kinda like a sample coaching session. That delivers some great insights.

Dave Stachowiak [00:13:51]:
That’s so key, right, to be able to 0 in on just that that one thing. Okay. So one other thing I’m curious about too is the thinking about background of coaches and who you connect with or don’t or or talk with. There’s been a lot I know in the coaching world amongst coaches of, like, the importance or the value of coaching certifications. And I think some people I think people are generally aware that those exist who are looking to hire coaches. I know this is widely debated in the coaching world, but I’m curious more so from the perspective of someone who might be considering a coach. How much should people be thinking about that, looking for things like certifications and particular kinds of training, or are other things more important? I’m just kinda curious, like, how you think about that.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:14:42]:
From our perspective, experience, experience coaching seems to be more important than certifications, though it’s certainly not a bad thing to have certifications and understand different modalities and approaches. And, certainly, if someone has a strong preference towards a certain modality or their company has a preference, then it’s it’s not a bad idea to look for that. But by no means is it necessary. And especially if a coach will have at least 5 to 10 years of experience coaching, They probably have multiple modalities that they, have used in the past. But, again, that’s I think that experience to us feels a little bit relevant.

Scott Osman [00:15:21]:
I think it also it varies. Interestingly, we’re working at the very highest end of coaching. And at the very highest end of coaching, we’re not concerned with certification at all. In the in the middle range, certification certainly provides an indication of a seriousness and a and at least an amount of training that makes the person like, you know the person has the skill set to be a good coach, but at the end of the day, just having the skill set really is not gonna make them the coach that you need, and so it’s a good way of vetting people to see, you know, if the person is relatively novice and they’re trained as a coach, you can have some comfort in that, but still you have to have the rigor of, is this person the right coach for many? If they have a lot of experience without the coach training, there’s a good chance they’re also an excellent coach.

Dave Stachowiak [00:16:11]:
I’m glad you mentioned that distinction too of the high end of coaching and more of that middle range. We’ve had so many of the 100 Coaches on the show. I have dozens and dozens of folks have been guests over the years, which is amazing. And I’m sort of curious as we think about this from someone who’s thinking about engaging a coach, what’s that distinction between that higher range and maybe that middle range of coaching? As far as what that looks like logistically thinking about it, like, just scope and time frame. I’m kinda curious how that plays out in the world because we do have well, we have listeners who are in both of those categories.

Scott Osman [00:16:51]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I think the, the coaches at the very high end well, actually, let me just preface it by it’s never about time. In fact, I think it’s fair to say that the coaches at the highest end probably spend the least amount of time with their clients. They’re incredibly efficient, they recognize that time with the client is the most expensive part of coaching. And part of what the client is getting from a super elite coach is the ability to very quickly get to the issue and support and remedy it. So from that perspective, it’s very different, and a lot of that just comes from the experience of coaching for decades, or the experience of having a combination of coaching for decades and having been in the executive suite. And that’s that’s what really a lot of what people are getting. And then just certain magic in great coaches that they have insights into individuals and what’s going on with the individual combined with gosh.

Scott Osman [00:17:45]:
It’s hard to even describe, but the magic of being able to say the thing the person needs to hear to be able to make the transformation they need to make. So that’s the very, very high end. Coaches in the middle range are really great, in some cases, great mirrors and are able to reflect back and cause the coachee to think about the issues they need to think about to be able to make the changes they need to make.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:18:09]:
Right. And this goes back to your question earlier about certifications is that coaches at the very highest level, they often know enough. I mean, they are they’ll often know about different modalities and methods. They’re well read. They’re well educated. They’re very experienced, but that allows them to also throw all that training out the window in some ways and to basically walk into in what might some might say is uncharted territory. But that’s what the high end of coaching really looks like is that they have this really experienced intuition and really know, again, as Scott said, how to say the right thing at the right time. And it’s they get incredible results very quickly.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:18:46]:
And in some ways, almost, they start to look a little bit more like coach advisers in many ways.

Scott Osman [00:18:52]:
You know, I also just wanna make sure that we’re clear. High end coaching, mid range coaching. Coaching is incredibly valuable for any leader. Some of the greatest issues that leaders face are leadership is lonely. When you’re a leader, you’re not getting the clear information about what’s going on in the organization because, you know, you have the ability to fire people, it’s just a different kind of relationship. And all coaches are gonna help you see things that you can’t see, particularly things about yourself. You know? A lot of coaching starts with a 360. And 360s are often described by many as one of the most painful experiences of their lives, I actually think it’s one of the most glorious experiences because it’s one of the few times that you actually get to see yourself in all candor.

Scott Osman [00:19:42]:
And once you see yourself with candor, you can make decisions about what you wanna work on and not work on, And I think that alone is just such a magical experience.

Dave Stachowiak [00:19:52]:
That sounds like a key thing to be ready for, to know that that’s probably coming. And I’m curious too. Like, what does this look like today as far as duration, venue? What would you expect as far as how a coach shows up and works with you and time frame? I know that varies somewhat, but I I get a sense there’s also some general things you might watch for and expect around that too.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:20:18]:
Even before the pandemic, it was pretty common for a lot of executive coaching to happen virtually over, let’s say, Zoom or Teams or other video conferencing. And now in the post pandemic world, that’s become even more the norm. It’s really about finding that resource is the right fit for you regardless of location or time zone. Of course, some people will meet up in person once or twice over the course of a coaching engagement, especially if they happen to be passing through the same city or something along those lines. But, yeah, more and more things are happening virtually. We say as a kind of a general rule of thumb, if people plan for either 1 session every week or maybe 1 coaching session every other week as kind of a more normal cadence?

Scott Osman [00:21:06]:
Yeah. Typically, the weekly sessions are often in about an hour, and the biweekly sessions go for a couple hours. I think often the cadence of them, it depends on the sort of the acuity of what you’re working on. If you’re working on something that, you know, you need to work on every week and make the change and hold on to that accountability, then the weekly sessions are really productive. If you’re looking to work on something that’s a little bit more strategic for yourself, then having the space of 2 weeks to sort of make the changes that were talked about in the coaching session or just see how things were playing out, then the every other week is viable. But but, really, that’s something we don’t even get involved in that. The coach and the coachee decide whether it’s the right cadence for them.

Dave Stachowiak [00:21:50]:
And I’m I’m interested in the because I think this is one of those things that seems very, like, all over the place and kinda like nebulous to people, especially if they’re doing coaching for the 1st time, which is the fee question. And I know this very so much. Like, every coach is different. Every organization’s different. I’m wondering, like, as I think about this, especially if I’m working with a coach for the 1st time, what hat do I put on as far as how I think about fees and what to navigate around that or what to expect? I’m just curious if you have any general advice for us on just thinking about that lens of it because it’s a reality.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:22:29]:
Yeah. We should specify too that most of the work that we see, the companies recognize the extraordinary value that coaching creates, and it’s really the company that’s investing in the coaching for their leaders. So, of course, if someone is looking to find coaching out of pocket, that becomes kind of a different equation. But we’ll share from our perspective, the company, again, is in many ways the primary value receiver when it comes to coaching. And so there are 2 things that we’re always really encouraging people to take into consideration, which is the the value creation potential of the leader who’s looking for coaching. So, again, if this is someone who’s the head of a major sales organization with a $1,000,000,000 P&L, that’s someone who represents a lot of value to the company. And so them operating at their maximum efficiency is really important and has a big ripple effect throughout their organization. And similarly, as Scott said earlier, it’s also about whatever inflection point they’re facing.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:23:30]:
Perhaps they’re going through a major transformation of some kind, or a market disruption, or some other thing that is, you know, poses a challenge or opportunity for them. And if they navigate that inflection point well, it’s likely to have, big financial upside for both for them personally, perhaps, and the company. And similarly, if it’s not navigated well, it’s a potential risk. And so when you take those factors into account, what again, that value creator potential in that inflection point, that starts to give you a sense of what the value return on coaching might be.

Scott Osman [00:24:04]:
I think that’s a great starting point. That’s how we work with all of our clients is we say, you know, based on the role and level of the individual and the size and impact in the company, combined with the level of experience of the coach, we come up with a number we think is a reasonable number based on value. But then we always tell them, but your budget is your budget. And so we respect the fact that if someone’s budget is different than the recommended amount, that they let us know, and we find a coach that’s willing to work with the budget. So I would say to anybody looking for a coach, if you’re obviously, if the company is underwriting it, then find out what the budget is for coaching. And and when you have a conversation with a company, talk about it from a value creation point of view, not for a cost per hour. And then when you go in and interview coaches, just tell them up front, this is my budget, and save yourself and the coach some time in you know, because you don’t wanna really talk to a coach that can’t work at the budget that you have.

Dave Stachowiak [00:25:05]:
And the other invitation I’m hearing you make there too, Scott, is that if you haven’t thought about it through the lens of the organization making that investment to be thinking that way as well. For our academy, the vast majority of members in our academy are funded by their organizations. And it’s interesting that sometimes people come to us and they are examining something like the academy, and they sometimes they’ve decided to pay on their own or something. That that is perfectly great. But it’s interesting how sometimes people haven’t thought about it from the standpoint of, oh, this is an investment the organization should be making because they are getting a big return. And so thinking about that through the lens of both of you said value and thinking, like, what does this potentially do and what does this replicate as far as value for the organization is like we would in any sort of executive strategic decision making. This is very similar in that way.

Scott Osman [00:25:58]:
Yeah. It’s like what Jacqueline said before. I don’t think there’s anything embarrassing about going to the company and saying, I wanna deliver more value for the company. I’m I believe that I’m an excelling important employee. I wanna deliver even more value, and I think a coach will help me do that. That’s something, at the very least, even if they say no, you’ve indicated the company that you aspire to do more for the company. Don’t think of it as you have to go to a company and say, you know, I’m failing, and I need a coach so that I’m not gonna fail.

Scott Osman [00:26:32]:
It’s really you’re really doing the company and saying, hey. I feel like I’m doing great, but I wanna do better.

Dave Stachowiak [00:26:38]:
You both write about this in the book, and I’m quoting you “A study by Metrics Global commissioned by a Fortune 500 company backs this up. The study found that if there are 529% financial return on investment from coaching in addition to intangible benefits. When employee retention attributed to better leadership is thrown into the mix, that number rises to 788%. Some studies have reported even higher returns.” The business case for coaching is absolutely been made over the years. I mean, we know much more about this than we did 10, 15 years ago, and it really does make a difference in the right situation and if you do your homework on these doesn’t it?

Scott Osman [00:27:18]:
Absolutely. It’s funny. Of course, the return on the coaching investment is a factor of how much money the coaching costs and how important the leader is within the organization. You can imagine the CEO of a Fortune 500 company that’s responsible for, I don’t know, $100,000,000,000 company. If that leader can be made incrementally more productive, better leader solving problems, the cost of coaching, however high it is, is incidental. Right? So I think that number of 500 x or 700 x return percent return is an average. But I think in individual cases of value creating leaders at inflection points, it’s dramatically more.

Dave Stachowiak [00:28:05]:
There’s a quote in the book that’s repeated a few times, and the quote is, “Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.” And I was thinking about that in the relation to starting to work with a coach because I think that there’s an orientation there that’s helpful. I’m wondering if you could share a bit about the quote and the meaning behind it.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:28:26]:
Mhmm. Yeah. It’s, it’s a quote I believe in that’s often used in the context of the military where he talks about sometimes the best thing you can do to move quickly is to slow down. That if you go if you try to take a turn in your car at a speed that’s just a little too fast, it could be a little out of control. And so the actually, the best way to make a turn is to slow down as you approach the turn so you can really start to make the change. And the same is true here too, that so many executives are used to charging full speed ahead. You know, the demands of their jobs and their lives are incredibly high. And really, as especially as you’re beginning, a coaching engagement is a great opportunity to to slow down, to take stock of things, to decide the best path forward, and then really start moving in that direction.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:29:17]:
That’s how the best changes are made. Yeah.

Dave Stachowiak [00:29:19]:
And it’s it’s it’s counterintuitive sometimes to the behavior of executive leadership each day because things do move so quickly, and I find that sometimes when just I’m working with folks in our academy that it’s it’s hard to, like, downshift and actually slow down and even stop for a little bit and do some thinking. But like you said, when you when you do take the turn slowly, you turn way more effectively than you do if you go through that turn recklessly, but it it takes a little bit of mental intention to stop and recognize I am gonna need to go a little bit slower here in order to go further.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:29:59]:
Mhmm. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Scott Osman [00:30:01]:
And that’s where great coaching comes into play is the coach can step in and say, you know, it seems like you have to move fast here, but if you slow down a little bit, you’re gonna be making better decisions and having a bigger impact and allowing others to come along the journey with you. And in the speed of the moment, it’s very hard to see that. A great coach, being a little bit outside you, but totally in your court can really be helpful.

Dave Stachowiak [00:30:26]:
You’ve both been leading an agency that works with the top coaches in the world. You’ve seen a lot of coaching interactions, a ton of success in recent years, the organization’s growing. I am curious as you’ve had this experience of leadership, what, if anything, you’ve changed your mind on in the last few years around coaching and how leaders benefit from coaching. And so I’m curious for both of you, what, if anything, have you changed your mind on?

Jacquelyn Lane [00:30:55]:
Yeah. One thing that’s really that has been eye opening is in the process of writing our book, Becoming Coachable. We really sat down to talk about what does it mean to be coachable? And I think prior to this book, I would have said that there are perhaps people who are uncoachable. That’s a term we’ve been hearing a little bit more these days. You know? And it’s a funny thing in in really breaking this down, trying to understand what goes into the process of being a coachable person, a coachable leader. We now believe that anyone can make that change. And so I guess my mind has really changed in that way, to say that we’re all somewhere on that journey.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:31:34]:
There’s hope for all of us.

Scott Osman [00:31:37]:
Yeah. I I think what’s changed for me most is I had always well, I always felt that leadership was was important and that a lot of change came from good leaders. But as we’ve been doing this now for quite some time, I realized that all change comes from great leaders, and some of the greatest leaders create change and you don’t even know they are the ones who have created it. We talk in the book about a flourishing leader, and a flourishing leader, is not looking to create more value for themselves, but they’re looking to create more value for everybody. And there’s wonderful examples of leaders who have stepped out of the limelight and created the space for everybody around them to be at their absolute best, and it almost looks like the leader is not doing as much as another leader who’s, like, always out there beating their chest. But I think that those leaders are creating extraordinary value. The flourishing leaders are creating extraordinary value, and the more of those leaders we have and I think they often get there through great coaching, the more of those leaders that we have, the more flourishing we’re gonna have on the planet. Right? And flourishing is both the individual reaching their fullest balanced potential, having the people around them also feel full and and feeling like they have a good life and also being respectful of the planet when all of that comes from leadership.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:01]:
Scott Osman and Jacqueline Lane are coauthors along with Marshall Goldsmith of Becoming Coachable: Unleashing the Power of Executive Coaching to Transform Your Leadership and Life. Thank you both for all your work. So grateful.

Jacquelyn Lane [00:33:14]:
Thank you so much for having us, Dave.

Scott Osman [00:33:16]:
Thanks, Dave. It’s been a great conversation.

Dave Stachowiak [00:33:24]:
Whenever our academy applications are open, I inevitably get a question from 1 or 2 people who ask, should I work with a coach or should I apply to the academy? And I almost always come back to the analogy of thinking about the smartphones that we all carry around these days. Smartphones have 2 pieces of different kinds of software on them. They have the apps, of course, that we all use on our phone all the time, and then, of course, there’s the operating system. And if you’re anything like me, it seems like you get 4 or 5 or sometimes 10 app updates a day. And each one of those updates makes each app that it’s updating either a little bit or in some cases, a lot better individually on that app doing that thing better. And then a couple of times a year, often once a year, there’s a big update to the entire operating system that allows all the apps to work better. It sets the standard for the entire device so that it can do anything more effectively. And I think about coaching versus the academy as very similar to that.

Dave Stachowiak [00:34:32]:
Coaching really good at focusing in on 1 or 2 things that are very targeted like an app update, if you will. The academy, much more of an operating system update, giving you the tools and resources to be able to do all kinds of things better in your leadership. Both are important, just like on the phone. It’s just a matter of what’s important now to focus on. If this conversation was helpful to you, several related episodes I’d recommend. One of them is episode 550, How to Win the Long Game When the Short Term Seems Bleak. Dorie Clark was my guest on that episode.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:08]:
I was just talking about this episode with a friend earlier today and thinking about the message that Scott and Jacqueline have in the book that slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Sometimes we need to slow down in order to go faster. A good coach will encourage us to do that. Dorie Clark, a great coach, encouraging us to, yes, be conscious of what’s happening in the short term, but always have the eye to the long term. She’s so gifted at doing that. Episode 550. If things are feeling really bleak right now in the short term for you and your career progression or where you are in your role, I think that’s a really wonderful episode to listen to.

Dave Stachowiak [00:35:45]:
I’d also recommend episode 576, how to help people engage in growth. Whitney Johnson was my guest on that episode. We talked about what she calls the s curve, the common process that we all have in learning and growth, and the frustration and the challenge that we all go through in the normal process of learning. We talked about how do we not only help others to move through that in a way that’s really effective and practical, but also how do we do that better for ourselves? A wonderful perspective on episode 576.And then I’d also finally recommend episode 599, a closely related topic to coaching, although different, mentoring. I talked with Robert Lefkowitz on that episode on the art of mentoring well. Bob, a recipient of the Nobel Prize and significant for that episode, also mentored someone who themselves won the Nobel Prize. A wonderful conversation about how he thinks about mentoring, so many lessons that I think about regularly, that conversation with Bob each week and my work and how I show up as a coach, or a mentor, or a consultant, depending on the hat I’m wearing at that time. Episode 599 for more of that perspective.

Dave Stachowiak [00:36:54]:
All of those episodes, of course, you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. If you haven’t yet, I’m inviting you to set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com. If you have your free membership, you know there’s already a ton of resources in there, including the ability to search all of the past episodes by topic. And one of the key resources inside of the free membership is a whole series of free audio courses. Those aren’t available on the public podcast apps, but they’re there inside of the free membership. One of the many courses there is 10 Ways to Empower the People You Lead. I when I put that course together, I went back into the catalog of all the episodes that I’ve aired since 2011 and picked 10. I thought of the most helpful, useful moments from episodes over the years.

Dave Stachowiak [00:37:46]:
If you’ve come to the podcast more recently, I think it’s a wonderful place to start because you can really hear some of the guest experts from over the years who have come and shared some of, I think, some of the best ideas. I’ve captured them in that course, 10 Ways to Empower the People You Lead. If you set up your free membership once you do just go ahead and click on courses, you’ll see that that’s one of the free audio courses available, plus tons of other benefits inside of the free membership.And if you are already a free member and you’re looking for a bit more from me, one of the activities we’re doing every single month is inviting a guest who has been on the podcast previously to sit down with a group of our academy and pro members for a live conversation. Unlike me asking the questions, though, it’s our members asking questions of the experts directly. On video conference, we record them all, and those recordings are available to all of our members in Coaching for Leaders Plus, not only a new one each month, but the entire back catalog for several years now of all the guest experts we’ve had in conversation with our members directly. You can find out more about that benefit and many others inside Coaching for Leaders Plus by just going over to coachingforleaders.plus. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest.

Dave Stachowiak [00:39:06]:
Next Monday, I’m glad to welcome William Urie to the show. He’s one of the top negotiation experts in the world, and we’re gonna be having a conversation about the 3 practices for thriving in negotiations. Join me for that conversation with William. Have a great week, and I’ll see you back on Monday.